US Police Shoot Unarmed Man With His Hands Up
Discussion
Another example of the quality of policing in some parts of the US.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/natio...
https://www.snopes.com/georgia-police-dog-head/
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/natio...
https://www.snopes.com/georgia-police-dog-head/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/th...
from 2015 but still relevant, 1000 people are killed by police officers in the USA,
''US police kill more in days than other countries do in years.
The UK in 24 years has had 55 fatal police shootings. there were 59 fatal shootings in the first 24 days of 2015.''
Canada had 25 fatal shootings in a year by police, o.k smaller but there police have guns.
Even extrapolating the figures what makes American Police officers 5 times more likely to shoot someone against it next door neighbour, it is a culture of fear and paranoia fed to them through mass media over breakfast, America is becoming a world embarrassment in relation to gun related deaths.
from 2015 but still relevant, 1000 people are killed by police officers in the USA,
''US police kill more in days than other countries do in years.
The UK in 24 years has had 55 fatal police shootings. there were 59 fatal shootings in the first 24 days of 2015.''
Canada had 25 fatal shootings in a year by police, o.k smaller but there police have guns.
Even extrapolating the figures what makes American Police officers 5 times more likely to shoot someone against it next door neighbour, it is a culture of fear and paranoia fed to them through mass media over breakfast, America is becoming a world embarrassment in relation to gun related deaths.
The Spruce goose said:
just don't get lost and accidentally threaten a home owner by walking non aggressively up there pathway to knock on the door, Americans have history, not just police officers of shooting people, sometimes through the shut door, innocuous people asking for help.
I like the United States. Some of my relations in suburban LA don't bother to lock their back door when they go out. Day to day crime is a lot lower than the UK. I don't ride a motorbike in to London, because it will get stolen even with a 15kg anchor chain wrapped between it and a lamp post and parked in an area full of pedestrians. That kind of thing doesn't happen in the US. There are a lot of guns around. The police are also not as well trained as in say the UK/Europe/Australia. The combination of a lot of guns in the general population and police who aren't well trained means every so often you get an innocent man killed (murdered imho) like this. DurianIceCream said:
every so often you get an innocent man killed (murdered imho) like this.
'every so' often it is running at 3 a day killed by police officers. Like I said 5 time higher than Canada. Violent crime is massively higher as well than any other 1st world country, and the 2 things are Intrinsically tied by guns. it is proven less guns means less violent crimes means less policemen killing innocent people, it is so simple yet unfathomable to Americans for whatever reason.The Spruce goose said:
it is proven less guns means less violent crimes means less policemen killing innocent people, it is so simple yet unfathomable to Americans for whatever reason.
The existence of Mexico, with strict gun laws, only one gun shop for civilians in the entire country, low levels of public gun ownership, yet extraordinary levels of violent crime, far in excess of the United States, would seem to contradict that. DurianIceCream said:
The existence of Mexico, with strict gun laws, only one gun shop for civilians in the entire country, low levels of public gun ownership, yet extraordinary levels of violent crime, far in excess of the United States, would seem to contradict that.
i'm not sure comparing mexico crime to USA is valid, i compared the usa to compatible countries such as Canada, European countries etc. Mexico per person gdp is 7 times less than the USA.The Spruce goose said:
i'm not sure comparing mexico crime to USA is valid, i compared the usa to compatible countries such as Canada, European countries etc. Mexico per person gdp is 7 times less than the USA.
Well Canada has less guns, but still a lot of guns. But Canada has a lot, lot, lot less gun related deaths and police shooting. Proportionally much less. It ain't the guns, it's what they are pointed at and who does the pointing. The Spruce goose said:
i'm not sure comparing mexico crime to USA is valid, i compared the usa to compatible countries such as Canada, European countries etc. Mexico per person gdp is 7 times less than the USA.
I couldn't agree more. It's pretty tragic that countries like Mexico and El Salvador often get mentioned in the same breath as the USA when discussing murder rates, violent crime rates, gun deaths etc. I have absolutely nothing against Mexico, El Salvador or any other country, but to pretend they're economically, socially or politically comparable to the US, UK, France, Germany, Australia etc is a bit of a stretch.
The person above complaining he wouldn't ride a motorbike in London because it'd get stolen is kind of missing the point. Yeah, sure your bike might be more likely to get nicked in London than NY (I don't even know if that's true, but let's assume it is), but you're around five times more likely to be murdered in the US than the UK. You can get a new bike (or choose not to, whatever floats your boat), it's a bit more difficult to get a new life.
DurianIceCream said:
It ain't the guns, it's what they are pointed at and who does the pointing.
What are they using to do the pointing at?? I know it is hard to take the blinkers off, and you seem like a USA fan boy, but study after study has shown high gun ownership leads to high rates of violent crime, which in turn, as proven with this thread and the 1000 (and that figure is low, as any police force that gets federal funding is supposed to accurately record all police related killings, but some forces still record them as suicides and are not reprimanded for this) that die at police hands.
The common denominator is take away the guns, the police could use non lethal weapons, legislation could legislate gun ownership, make it stricter, and in turn thousands of people who would have died don't. The problem that i see if a lot generally think that these people the police kill, deserve to die.
''These analyses do not support the hypothesis that firearm ownership deters violent firearm crime. Instead, this study shows that higher levels of firearm ownership are associated with higher rates of firearm-related violent crime.''
Michael Monuteaux, Harvard, ]Firearm Ownership and Violent Crime in the US - Semantic Scholar
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bc6f/104b5b658796...
Edited by The Spruce goose on Saturday 9th December 18:49
Matt100HP said:
The person above complaining he wouldn't ride a motorbike in London because it'd get stolen is kind of missing the point. Yeah, sure your bike might be more likely to get nicked in London than NY (I don't even know if that's true, but let's assume it is), but you're around five times more likely to be murdered in the US than the UK. You can get a new bike (or choose not to, whatever floats your boat), it's a bit more difficult to get a new life.
I think you have a rose coloured view of crime in the UK. The UK does not have low levels of violent crime, it only has low levels of fatal violent crime. The US may have more murders, but the large majority are gang related. In the general population, the US murder rate is low. Getting murdered is just not a daily cause for concern for the average American (even if a lot of them buy guns for self-defence, just because). Your bike might not just be stolen in London. You could just as well be bike-jacked and have acid thrown in your face by the criminals who take your bike while you are riding it. The UK is now no. 1 in the world for acid attacks. It may be hard to get a new life if you are dead. It's also hard to get a new face or new eye when someone throws acid in it in London.
Edited by DurianIceCream on Saturday 9th December 18:58
DurianIceCream said:
The US may have more murders, but the large majority are gang related.
Do you actually check what you write, interestingly that statistic you use is the gun pro lobby mantra.''The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012''
'' These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually. ''
https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis...
so in 2011 around 15k murders, around 90% a gun used to kill. Gang related gun killing would be around 1.9k a year , around 10% of all gun related homicides, 5% is the police, as stated they kill 1k a year. So gangs and the police account for 15% of all gun related homicides.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in...
Edited by The Spruce goose on Saturday 9th December 19:29
The Spruce goose said:
DurianIceCream said:
The existence of Mexico, with strict gun laws, only one gun shop for civilians in the entire country, low levels of public gun ownership, yet extraordinary levels of violent crime, far in excess of the United States, would seem to contradict that.
i'm not sure comparing mexico crime to USA is valid, i compared the usa to compatible countries such as Canada, European countries etc. Mexico per person gdp is 7 times less than the USA.Way to go guys.
The Spruce goose said:
DurianIceCream said:
The US may have more murders, but the large majority are gang related.
Do you actually check what you write, interestingly that statistic you use is the gun pro lobby mantra.''The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012''
'' These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually. ''
https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis...
so in 2011 around 15k murders, around 90% a gun used to kill. Gang related gun killing would be around 1.9k a year , around 10% of all gun related homicides, 5% is the police, as stated they kill 1k a year. So gangs and the police account for 15% of all gun related homicides.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in...
Edited by The Spruce goose on Saturday 9th December 19:29
Yet this way higher risk seems acceptable to some..
Home invasions!
Every non-sensible American I’ve discussed this topic with always mentions Home Invasions.
How would defend myself if someone broke into my house?
My answer has always been that it’s never going to happen. But if it did and some guys broke in then they can have whatever they like. No need for any trouble just take it.
Yeah but what if they try to kill you or your family?!?!
Well I guess then I would have to fight but since I’m not a drug dealer or incredibly wealthy why is anyone going to break in to my house in the night to kill us? I’d be better off preparing for what to do if a tiger escaped from the zoo, got into our house and had taken up residence on the sofa -as that’s more likely.
The other thing I cannot get then to grasp is that bad guys can be good guys and vice versa.
They never seem to comprehend that they could become a ‘bad guy’ one day. Oh they say it’s fine for me to have guns as I’m one of the good guys....yes mate until you’re not.
The other learning I have is from doing Krav Maga for about six years twice a week and additional weekend training (stopped this about 5 years ago). In almost all situations if someone has a knife or a gun just give them what they want. Don’t try for a disarm, don’t go for a weapon, don’t even try to run unless you are at least 4 metres away - if they have a knife. Just give them your wallet, watch, car, TV etc. It’s not like in films; you will get hurt and it only takes a small wound to lose your life or an eye or the use of a limb....it’s just not worth it.
This idea of ‘good guys’ having guns to draw on ‘bad guys’ seems ingrained in the culture though. How you break them of that - I have no idea.
Every non-sensible American I’ve discussed this topic with always mentions Home Invasions.
How would defend myself if someone broke into my house?
My answer has always been that it’s never going to happen. But if it did and some guys broke in then they can have whatever they like. No need for any trouble just take it.
Yeah but what if they try to kill you or your family?!?!
Well I guess then I would have to fight but since I’m not a drug dealer or incredibly wealthy why is anyone going to break in to my house in the night to kill us? I’d be better off preparing for what to do if a tiger escaped from the zoo, got into our house and had taken up residence on the sofa -as that’s more likely.
The other thing I cannot get then to grasp is that bad guys can be good guys and vice versa.
They never seem to comprehend that they could become a ‘bad guy’ one day. Oh they say it’s fine for me to have guns as I’m one of the good guys....yes mate until you’re not.
The other learning I have is from doing Krav Maga for about six years twice a week and additional weekend training (stopped this about 5 years ago). In almost all situations if someone has a knife or a gun just give them what they want. Don’t try for a disarm, don’t go for a weapon, don’t even try to run unless you are at least 4 metres away - if they have a knife. Just give them your wallet, watch, car, TV etc. It’s not like in films; you will get hurt and it only takes a small wound to lose your life or an eye or the use of a limb....it’s just not worth it.
This idea of ‘good guys’ having guns to draw on ‘bad guys’ seems ingrained in the culture though. How you break them of that - I have no idea.
rscott said:
In America, the chance of being killed with a gun is the same as the chance of dying in a car crash..
Which, for a sense of perspective, is already over three and a half times more likely to occur than in the UK! Source: http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road...
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