Uber are getting shirty

[Whoozit]

popeyewhite said:

Hmm not so sure. Look at Apple and Microsoft.

Quite a difference between invested infrastructure, and a cloud-based marketplace. One is hard to disrupt, the other is not.

[skwdenyer]

jakesmith said:

What a load of old bks, you've never been in one. They are always friendly, speak great English, driving is fine. I get them all the time. I hate the arrogant way black cabs drive in London, undertaking 1 car and cutting in using bus lanes etc.

I live about 20 miles out of central London and an Uber home after a night out is about £35-£40. Addison Lee or standard minicab is more like £70. Black cab is £120. I would not be able to justify spending £120 on a taxi home after a few beers after work with my friends so this ban will greatly reduce my social life

I'm sure you'd like cheaper beer on your night out, too - 65% off perhaps? That would be great.

It probably won't happen, because some investors are not going to pay for it to buy market share...

£120 you say? Assuming Tarrif 3 (most expensive) then that is something quite

20 miles would cost £74 on Tarrif 3. So your journey must be more like 30 miles.

Assuming an average of no more than 20 mph, that's 1.5 hours each way = 3 hours round trip.

Let's assume driver cost of £15 per hour. That's £45 in time alone. Prius running costs seem to be about 0.7 times that or £10 ph (vehicle hire, insurance, servicing, etc). So that's £75. About the minicab rate, so about right.

So you want to pay half that, and have the convenience of the instant pickup, global app, etc etc. How do you think that that is sustainable? How much should people earn?

[jamoor]

skwdenyer said:

Addison Lee tried for years to get the PCO to allow them to do what Uber is doing. They were told it was illegal. Unlike Uber, they actually have skin in the game, so they didn't "disrupt" for fear of being shut down.

I'm really curious to know what did AL ask the PCO exactly? What were they told is illegal?

[jamoor]

skwdenyer said:

I'm sure you'd like cheaper beer on your night out, too - 65% off perhaps? That would be great.

It probably won't happen, because some investors are not going to pay for it to buy market share...

£120 you say? Assuming Tarrif 3 (most expensive) then that is something quite

20 miles would cost £74 on Tarrif 3. So your journey must be more like 30 miles.

Assuming an average of no more than 20 mph, that's 1.5 hours each way = 3 hours round trip.

Let's assume driver cost of £15 per hour. That's £45 in time alone. Prius running costs seem to be about 0.7 times that or £10 ph (vehicle hire, insurance, servicing, etc). So that's £75. About the minicab rate, so about right.

So you want to pay half that, and have the convenience of the instant pickup, global app, etc etc. How do you think that that is sustainable? How much should people earn?

I think the uber philosophy is that driving a minicab isn't a profession, millions of people can drive and have a car.

So let's destroy the taxi driver as a profession as frankly it's not needed. If someone already has a job making a good wage, if they want to make a bit more money on the side at the weekend or evening they can drive people around and make a bit of cash, they can do this cheaper than someone on £15 an hour.
It's the same as people who stick their box room on airbnb, these people already have a job and fulltime work, they just make a bit of extra cash from a spare asset they may have.

The fk ups come when people see uber as a full time job (or are previously minicab/black cab drivers) that think of it as full time job with vastly inflated prices to boot and sustain the time when they are sat on a rank doing nothing.
It the same types of people that go out and sign a 12 month rental agreement on a flat in central london and want to airbnb it out permanently, but then get kicked off airbnb for an infarction or somesuch.


In essence we should stop seeing a cab driver as a profession.

[hyphen]

Whoozit said:

popeyewhite said:

And Uber just magicked the money out of thin air to afford this? It's cost Uber millions - In order to undercut the black cabs they've had to operate at a huge loss. And when all the black cabs are gone Uber will offload half their workforce and increase prices to get their money back. Anyone who thinks otherwise has sheep loose in the top paddock.

Once the genie is out of the bottle, no-one can force him back in. If Uber try to exercize monopoly power, another taxitech company will be along shortly. That's the magic of the modern era.

Not really, the word to note in your term monopoly power, is 'power'

Will take very deep pockets to compete once Uber takes a stranglehold to the point of investors not bothering, if a new competitor comes along, they will price them out of existence, if a new innovator comes along, they will just buy them up at an early stage. Autonomous cars would be the biggest challenge and Uber are already active in that area.

There is no magic in this modern area, google controls search and will buy up anyone that challenges it (Waze, Android and so on). Facebook commands social and will buy out anyone (WhatsApp, Instagram), and Microsoft still holds power over the desktop and office.

[skwdenyer]

jamoor said:

I'm really curious to know what did AL ask the PCO exactly? What were they told is illegal?

AL wanted to charge per mile using a mapping app, just like Uber. In Uber's case, the PCO also said it was an illegal taxi meter. Uber went to court and won.

AL own their own cars. They decided they couldn't take the risk - the PCO would not approve it, and they couldn't apparently get a declaratory judgement - all they could do would be to start, wait for the PCO to act, then hope to win in court.

Uber have no cars. Different risk for them to take.

[Whoozit]

hyphen said:

There is no magic in this modern area, google controls search and will buy up anyone that challenges it (Waze, Android and so on). Facebook commands social and will buy out anyone (WhatsApp, Instagram), and Microsoft still holds power over the desktop and office.

Myspace. Nokia. Toys R Us. IBM. ICQ. Want me to carry on? Each the category killer in their space at the time. None exist in anywhere near the same controlling position they once had. If the last few decades have taught you and me anything, it's that new competition will come out of nowhere and with an angle that's pretty impossible to predict. For God's sake, the iphone is only 10 years old. We've barely scraped the surface of always-on, instant communication.

[Sa Calobra]

How do Uber gets it's prices so cheap compared to the competition?

Taxi insurance is hideous
Running costs
Wear and tear
Fuel, yes even a hybrid needs fuel
Wage... To compete and undercut what's going to take a hit in that shiny new hybrid?

Punters don't care, all they care about is a convenient cheap app.

[Blaster72]

Whoozit said:

BJG1 said:

Given that Uber have more drivers than the entirety of the market combined in 2002, I'd say the market has got safer since Uber's been in it, not less.

People comparing to black cab drivers are missing the point - Uber mostly competes with mini-cabs. It was very difficult to tell if the cab you were in was even licensed at all before Uber.

(I've not quoted your post to contradict it btw)

I wish PH had a Like button.

One of the reasons the licence hasn't been renewed is because Uber aren't reporting crimes committed by their drivers to ensure their stats look good at the end of the year. They just bump the driver out of their system and move on.

I'd struggle to agree that the market is safer since Uber arrived. I'd agree people are less likely to use unlicensed cabs which were rife in London a few years back though.

[98elise]

jamoor said:

7795 said:

stuttgartmetal said:

Whoozit said:

stuttgartmetal said:

Gullible is no longer listed in dictionaries any more.
Go ahead
Check.

Stutty, darling. I could have mentioned Warbuoys but he was caught in 2009, and a single - if infamous - incident. Instead I found the most recent, readily available data for London. Which shows that cabbies of all stripes take advantage of their passengers. Go ahead, check the data. And then call me gullible.

Whooz
Look at percentages
25000 Black Cabbies
One conviction.
And he was caught.
That article is pure speculation written upon the very extreme points of the statistical curve
Not even a trend or mean.


It takes about five years to get a green badge
It takes about five minutes to drive for Uber.

146 convictions last year of Black Cab drivers.

Out of interest, what about minicab drivers that have been around for years.

The big gripe I have with this entire situation is that black cabs and minicabs have existed in tandem for years. Nobody complains.

When Uber comes along and does the minicab thing in a different way using technology albeit entirely legally not only technically but within the spirit of the law, the ltda get their knickers in a twist and begin a smear campaign.


Why didn't they ever complain about Addison Lee and the like?

Because booking a minicab was harder than hailing a black cab. Black cabs had a Monopoly on conveniently getting a ride.

Uber have come along and made booking a minicab easier, cheaper and better than hailing a black cab, so they are not happy.

[Vaud]

98elise said:

Because booking a minicab was harder than hailing a black cab. Black cabs had a Monopoly on conveniently getting a ride.

Uber have come along and made booking a minicab easier, cheaper and better than hailing a black cab, so they are not happy.

I agree.

Black cabs had a competitive advantage when "the knowledge" was significantly useful.

Satnav partly reduced that. Waze, etc further reduce that advantage.

Tie that in with low leasing costs, a neat app and more certainty over when your vehicle will appear and you have, as a service offering, been disrupted. When you fail to respond to that disruption then you become archaic.

[Don]

My prediction is that Khan will regret this.

400K signatories (on a petition to reinstate Uber) out of a customer base of 3.5 million is a massive proportion.

Feelings are running high. And they are for Uber not against.

[buggalugs]

popeyewhite said:

Burwood said:

Try getting a Black Cab in the West End after 1am. 'Where you going?Err Canary Wharf...awh sorry mate I'm just on my way home'. Bunch of tossers. They let Uber walk through the front door. Don't take machines

Didn't Uber just undercut the black cabs by about 40% and proliferate the streets with drivers? If Uber is allowed to stay in London the black cabs will go out of business, Uber will have a monopoly and put prices up far higher than the black cabs currently are.

The issue is they’re doing it at a massive loss. They’re loosing billions a year to undercut the black cabs, and how long can they afford to keep that up? And what’s going to happen to the prices once the competition throws in the towel?

[Don]

buggalugs said:

popeyewhite said:

Burwood said:

Try getting a Black Cab in the West End after 1am. 'Where you going?Err Canary Wharf...awh sorry mate I'm just on my way home'. Bunch of tossers. They let Uber walk through the front door. Don't take machines

Didn't Uber just undercut the black cabs by about 40% and proliferate the streets with drivers? If Uber is allowed to stay in London the black cabs will go out of business, Uber will have a monopoly and put prices up far higher than the black cabs currently are.

The issue is they’re doing it at a massive loss. They’re loosing billions a year to undercut the black cabs, and how long can they afford to keep that up? And what’s going to happen to the prices once the competition throws in the towel?

It would appear that operationally they make a profit. But, much like Amazon, they are going for growth.

They clearly intend to take over the entire planet (much like Amazon). Amazon still has to compete with other stores. I think Uber will have to for some time to come. Whilst they make getting transport easier, cheaper and better that's a good thing IMO. They aren't in my town yet...but I'm looking forward to when they arrive, as they surely will.

[The Mad Monk]

buggalugs said:

The issue is they’re doing it at a massive loss. They’re loosing billions a year to undercut the black cabs, and how long can they afford to keep that up? And what’s going to happen to the prices once the competition throws in the towel?

Well, if and when the opposition throw in the towel, other companies - large or small - will see this field of business as a good investment.

I think it is very short sighted folly to prohibit an idea, such as an app based car calling/hailing service.

Long term I think the days of the black cab and/or 'the knowledge' are numbered.

Would you put your son into the black cab trade?

Edited by The Mad Monk on Sunday 24th September 10:01

[bitchstewie]

I don't see anyone trying to prohibit an idea though

This is simply about Uber doing what the regulator asks them to do - if they did they'd have had their license renewed.

[valiant]

Don said:

My prediction is that Khan will regret this.

400K signatories (on a petition to reinstate Uber) out of a customer base of 3.5 million is a massive proportion.

Feelings are running high. And they are for Uber not against.

Over 4m voted on a petition for a second Brexit referendum (yay, I've brought Brexit into it ). It meant the square root of fk all. (And quite rightly too).

I'm not sure way people are thinking that this is a battle between black cabbies and Uber. In this case, it's Uber not complying with the terms and conditions of its operating licence. And it's not as if this has come out of nowhere. Uber were given fair warning to get its house in order and even an extension on its old licence but have done nothing.

All Uber has to do is comply, just like all the other ph firms out there. Do this and Uber will continue to operate. It is that simple.

So instead of railing against black cabbies or TfL, ask Uber WHY they refuse to accept the reasonable and accepted terms and conditions that apply to all firms.

Uber's PR machine is doing a good job at the moment with lone women getting home, 40k drivers out of work, etc but hardly anyone is saying to Uber to stop acting like a petulant child and comply with the rules.

[Jonesy23]

I see Uber's PR budget doing its usual quality job. All the arguments are over things which have nothing to do with why TfL took action - and all those things are ones they have had trouble with before globally.

The signatures thing is irrelevant. It's unaudited, with no idea of the source or even if anything more than 1% were put in by people not computers. But hey 'x00,000' signatures!!!!

Hey what about all our poor drivers!!! The ones you work so hard to prove aren't employees and fk over at every opportunity to extract a few cents.

As for the cack handed AstroTurfing they've been paying some people for... well see above and spot which account it is.

Maybe one day as a company they'll play by the rules and they'll charge honestly based on actual cost but that isn't the corporate culture. its a company run by dysfunctional s.

I can't say I particularly like the way black cabs or minicabs work a lot of the time but on a global basis Uber is probably the most extreme example of tech bro fk the rules business that exists.

Seriously, fk Uber.

[buggalugs]

A little tip for some people. Words like ‘disruption’ and ‘making the world a better place’ when used by people making seven figure salaries in the processs are something called marketing bullst.

These are not our benevolent tech overlords these are a bunch of frat boys with big marketing budgets obligated to create a return for their investors.

[Robertj21a]

Don said:

My prediction is that Khan will regret this.

400K signatories (on a petition to reinstate Uber) out of a customer base of 3.5 million is a massive proportion.

Feelings are running high. And they are for Uber not against.

The only feelings that should be running high relate to why Uber hasn't complied with what has been asked of them.
No doubt many of that 400k haven't even considered the facts behind the TfL action.