Everyone is so offended.
Discussion
JagLover said:
The concern over safeguarding is more to do those who you have not met I imagine.
I imagine you do not mix with male sex offenders who declare they self identify as women to be put in women's prisons for one example. Nor I imagine do you mix with the kinds of perverts who want to get into girl's changing rooms for sexual gratification.
There are serious issues surrounding safeguarding that cannot be simply wished away because people want to appear tolerant.
On this I agree - and I think I've been consistent in saying so. There are nutters in the trans community who abuse the desire to show tolerance.I imagine you do not mix with male sex offenders who declare they self identify as women to be put in women's prisons for one example. Nor I imagine do you mix with the kinds of perverts who want to get into girl's changing rooms for sexual gratification.
There are serious issues surrounding safeguarding that cannot be simply wished away because people want to appear tolerant.
The point though is you cannot condemn an entire group because of the nutters. Especially when there are a lot of mechanisms in place to catch the nutters. The "think of the children" arguments here are being used to disguise prejudice against the whole group.
Bringing this back to the 'so offended' theme - the thing is, extremists at both ends of the debate are using screaming offence as a mechanism to try and force a heavy handed outcome (denial of the legitimacy of transsexualism at one end, complete freedom to arbitrarily declare identity at the other). Neither group should really be entertained, because for the vast majority of human beings the reality is somewhere in the middle. The reality is most transsexuals want to live a normal life, it takes serious commitment and a lot of hurdles to change identity and the number of people who would seriously consider using gender identity to gain access to vulnerable groups is minuscule. Sure, it's not zero, but there are never zero nutters in society, and we manage those nutters through other mechanisms.
Breadvan is pointing to the nutters at one end and using that as an excuse to validate the views of the nutters at the other end.
A good take from a respected left wing feminist on one of the reasons why a chunk of the left is getting this stuff wrong.
https://unherd.com/2020/02/why-are-liberals-so-hyp...
https://unherd.com/2020/02/why-are-liberals-so-hyp...
Sarah Ditum said:
“Transphobia” functions in just the same way. In that word, the belief that sex exists (and is unaffected by how someone dresses, acts or claims to identify) is lumped in with the attitude that violence or discrimination is a reasonable response to someone not dressing, acting or identifying themselves in the way usually expected of their sex. Again: absurd. But totally consistent with the belief that only an irrational fear of contamination can explain any resistance to another party’s desires. You must tolerate, or be defined as the victim of a sickness.
8.4L 154 said:
breadvan72 said:
Earlier this week, Glasgow Women's Library banned a women's group from discussing the GRA reforms because a man complained
So the truth behind Glasgow Women's Library, They had a leaky roof, they had to move their kettle and some books and tidy up the mess, as a result they closed their building. Subsequently they discovered the group who were cancelled due to the leaky roof had made the booking by misrepresenting themselves, something these groups seem to do often.Fact: A woman's group has been banned from meeting at a taxpayer funded women's library to discuss issues that affect women ... because a man complained. Look it up.
descentia said:
... the TERF side of the argument. ....
TERF has been described as a form of hate speech by a High Court Judge. It is a term of abuse aimed at de platforming women who oppose the take over of their political and physical spaces by men. The moment you use that term you forrfeit any credibility. Tuna said:
...
As I said before, I fully accept there are nutters on the trans side, but that is no justification for refusing to acknowledge that for some, being transsexual is a serious and debilitating condition that can be addressed by intervention. Pointing to idiots in jail, or suggesting that children are being incorrectly reassigned (are they, in any meaningful numbers? Not exactly a regular news item) does not negate the need for acceptance and provision in our society, does it?
....
No one suggests that GID is not an extant and serious condition, and no one is seeking to dehumanise trans people, but the sad reality is that a form of extremism has taken hold, (it is opposed by many trans people as well as by feminist women and LGB people). On this thread, you can see evidence of it. Anyone who questions the woke orthodoxy is told to be kinder, or is shouted down, with terms such as transphobe and TERF being used. It may be that this is just another instance of the contemporary war on science, war on evidence and expertise, and the primacy of emotions over reason, but it is an unusually striking one because of the speed and extent of the capture of government agencies, universities etc by one particular lobby. The height of absurdity was reached yesterday when a young woman asserted to a feminist conference that feminism must be centred on the needs of ... men. As I said before, I fully accept there are nutters on the trans side, but that is no justification for refusing to acknowledge that for some, being transsexual is a serious and debilitating condition that can be addressed by intervention. Pointing to idiots in jail, or suggesting that children are being incorrectly reassigned (are they, in any meaningful numbers? Not exactly a regular news item) does not negate the need for acceptance and provision in our society, does it?
....
One analysis is that transing allows entitled white males to leap straight into an imaginary class of the oppressed. Bingo! Yesterday I was just another well heeled white guy with a carefully groomed beard sipping my latte in Starbucks. Today I am a member of the most oppressed group that has ever existed in the whole of history, and all other minorities must give place to my emotional needs! Any lesbian who does not want to date me is a hate filled transphobe! Oh, my feels!
Breadvan72 said:
TERF has been described as a form of hate speech by a High Court Judge. It is a term of abuse aimed at de platforming women who oppose the take over of their political and physical spaces by men. The moment you use that term you forrfeit any credibility.
Would you like to enlighten me on what credibility I have suddenly lost ? Maybe you think there's some kind of qualification to be had to have any legitimacy of opinion here. Here's what Cosmopolitan has to say about the use of terf.
https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/love-sex/relations...
"The people referred to as TERFs consider their beliefs to be a protest against the patriarchy. Under the guise of “protecting women” they spread the idea that trans women are a threat because they are men, attempting to gain access to women’s spaces such as bathrooms and trick lesbians into having sex with them. While transgender men are perceived as trying to escape the misogyny experienced by women, by becoming men.
This is, of course, bulls
t. There is mountains of research by psychologists and academics to prove these ideas wrong, and these views have only fuelled the fire of violent transphobia that already exists in the UK.So, to avoid all the confusion about slurs and names, let’s stop using the term TERFs and call them what they actually are – anti-trans activists. Giving them any association with feminism would be wrong, especially as many of their organisations are funded by anti-abortion and evangelical groups, and they rarely speak about anything other than denying trans people’s existence."
Breadvan72 said:
descentia said:
... the TERF side of the argument. ....
TERF has been described as a form of hate speech by a High Court Judge. It is a term of abuse aimed at de platforming women who oppose the take over of their political and physical spaces by men. The moment you use that term you forrfeit any credibility. Again you seem to be fabricating an argument in a way to promote division and hatred, its also noted that you commonly refer to trans women as men in your posts which has been ruled in court as a belief not worthy of respect in a civilised society.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Sunday 1st March 14:37
Breadvan72 said:
One analysis is that transing allows entitled white males to leap straight into an imaginary class of the oppressed. Bingo! Yesterday I was just another well heeled white guy with a carefully groomed beard sipping my latte in Starbucks. Today I am a member of the most oppressed group that has ever existed in the whole of history, and all other minorities must give place to my emotional needs! Any lesbian who does not want to date me is a hate filled transphobe! Oh, my feels!
The fact that you think this is a significant social phenomena speaks volumes. It's a straw man.amusingduck said:
Pronoun Enforcer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Gorcenski
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/05/24/i-became-...
Tuna said:
Breadvan72 said:
One analysis is that transing allows entitled white males to leap straight into an imaginary class of the oppressed. Bingo! Yesterday I was just another well heeled white guy with a carefully groomed beard sipping my latte in Starbucks. Today I am a member of the most oppressed group that has ever existed in the whole of history, and all other minorities must give place to my emotional needs! Any lesbian who does not want to date me is a hate filled transphobe! Oh, my feels!
The fact that you think this is a significant social phenomena speaks volumes. It's a straw man.Olas said:
The world has moved on. No longer do we need AP & AM to signal wealth, more important in todays world is Wokeness Signalling. The more unimportnat and petty things you can be offended by, the more woke you appear to your social media followers.
It is the financially more comfortable who seem to have the freedom to concentrate on their wokeness rather than getting by though.smn159 said:
Agreed - 'Wokeness' is a real problem for those who live their lives through social media and get their opinions from the Mail Online
Strangely I never hear of it in the 'real world' though. Maybe there's a lesson there.
It's common across all strata of the media. The prevalence of a word on Twitter and the Mail in the context of deriding its adherents doesn't detract from what is essentially a cult of taking offence on the behalf of others, or victimising or expressing moral superiority over those who have not given due consideration to their choice of words, resulting in the use of terminology others not present in the conversation may find offensive.Strangely I never hear of it in the 'real world' though. Maybe there's a lesson there.
Most live in a bubble in the real world world of course and it would be rare to find someone using the term when in mutual agreement with ones associate about the plight of minorities.
Yesterday's usage I heard was by Sam Harris stating he was not prepared for the level of 'wokeness' of one of his guests, which resulted in a lengthy dialogue over what sort of evidence you need to be able to brand someone a racist.
Edited by R Mutt on Monday 2nd March 10:56
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