Politics in France
Discussion
aeropilot said:
Ziplobb said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Maybe, maybe not. The question posed was is she a fascist? The answer is yes, she is & the worst kind - a fascist who tries to portray themselves as something other than that.
so just like the small group of people that *actually* run the European Union ? Tusk & Juncker??
As is often the case the most 'anti-fascist' people are often, just exactly the same in so many ways.
aeropilot said:
Exactly
As is often the case the most 'anti-fascist' people are often, just exactly the same in so many ways.
it always makes me chuckleAs is often the case the most 'anti-fascist' people are often, just exactly the same in so many ways.
No1 son has come home from school recently and reported that one of his teachers has been referring to Trump as a fascist - I have had to point out to him that they are many other fascists running counties / the EU that in the pecking order of fascism are far higher up than the Donald
jjlynn27 said:
So after literary years of predicting that Le Pen will win the first round, (well some 'thought' that she'll get 40%), now it's back to 'oh look but she increased her share'.
Same demographics that were voting for ukip here are voting for FN there. Mostly C2 and lower. Unsurprisingly.
I seem to pay a lot of tax as a "C2 and lower", but I voted leave so it probably makes sense.Same demographics that were voting for ukip here are voting for FN there. Mostly C2 and lower. Unsurprisingly.
Which one is the protest vote ?
Le Pen
or
Macron
del mar said:
I seem to pay a lot of tax as a "C2 and lower", but I voted leave so it probably makes sense.
Which one is the protest vote ?
Le Pen
or
Macron
Le Pen represents change and macron looks like more of the same but as he doesn't have any policies, nobody is really sure. Which one is the protest vote ?
Le Pen
or
Macron
I would say Le Pen is the protest vote.
Eddie Strohacker said:
Thirdly, it's a matter of simple moral decency to be opposed to fascism for anyone with even the merest sense of history about them.
Why? Nazism yes but Fascism itself is merely "An authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization." (quote = Oxford English Dictionary)As such many governments around the world are Fascist and they still have a seat and a vote at the UN? Or is it only "right wing" Fascism that should be opposed?
Digga said:
Lance Catamaran said:
Satire perhaps, but it is a very good assessment of what's going on in politics here and in Europe.Jinx said:
Why? Nazism yes but Fascism itself is merely "An authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization." (quote = Oxford English Dictionary)
As such many governments around the world are Fascist and they still have a seat and a vote at the UN? Or is it only "right wing" Fascism that should be opposed?
This is so confused, it's hard to know where to begin. The Nazis weren't right wing, the clue is in their name. If you think that & seeing as you typed it out, seems reasonable to think you do, then we're probably operating on different planes & yes, they were fascists, Naziism & fascism as seen in Germany were indivisible. As such many governments around the world are Fascist and they still have a seat and a vote at the UN? Or is it only "right wing" Fascism that should be opposed?
MiniMan64 said:
Surely most of the people who voted for the other 3 will vote for Marcon this time around as a centrist?
Le Pen's fan base seems fairly steady and as much as PH wills it she's probably not going to pick up that many more votes from the other parties?
There was a 'radical socialist' who got nearly 20% of the vote. Many of his policies (particularly EU and economic) where similar to Le Pen, so more of his supporters may switch to Le Pen. Le Pen's fan base seems fairly steady and as much as PH wills it she's probably not going to pick up that many more votes from the other parties?
Overall you would think that she would top out not much higher she is now, but who really knows?
MiniMan64 said:
Surely most of the people who voted for the other 3 will vote for Marcon this time around as a centrist?
Le Pen's fan base seems fairly steady and as much as PH wills it she's probably not going to pick up that many more votes from the other parties?
I think you're right.Le Pen's fan base seems fairly steady and as much as PH wills it she's probably not going to pick up that many more votes from the other parties?
The next two elections or so will be where the fun is if Macron seeks to ignore the sort of people who have moved to MLP though.
In the last election she didn't make it past round 1 with 17.9% of the vote, finishing 3rd. In the one prior to that her father managed 10.4% and finished 4th (OK, his approach was somewhat more odious. But nonetheless).
The FN did manage a lot more than that 15yrs ago, but still sub 17% (last time they finished 2nd) and were 4th before that one (1995) with 15%.
If MLP carries on, and moderates a little more towards the next election, things could look very different in 2022.
Whoever wins on the 7th, and as much as the EU spin it, I don't see this as "populism" being rejected either. The traditional parties have been booted into touch. Macron is running on some pretty un-French policies (bad news for our negotiating position IMO), and Le Pen has increased her following since the last election significantly. The EU will think they are safe. Their arrogance won't allow them to do any different. But if they don't change away from "more EU", 2022 will be interesting.
hornetrider said:
jjlynn27 said:
Same demographics that were voting for ukip here are voting for FN there. Mostly C2 and lower. Unsurprisingly.
What's C2? What conclusion are you drawing?Murph7355 said:
...
Whoever wins on the 7th, and as much as the EU spin it, I don't see this as "populism" being rejected either. The traditional parties have been booted into touch. Macron is running on some pretty un-French policies (bad news for our negotiating position IMO), and Le Pen has increased her following since the last election significantly. The EU will think they are safe. Their arrogance won't allow them to do any different. But if they don't change away from "more EU", 2022 will be interesting.
Wasn't Le Pen promising retirement at 60 and 33-35h work week? Like it or not, MLP appeals to the 'zomg burka' and 'joe foreigner took my job' brigade. Macron is winning on the platform of 'more EU'. Whoever wins on the 7th, and as much as the EU spin it, I don't see this as "populism" being rejected either. The traditional parties have been booted into touch. Macron is running on some pretty un-French policies (bad news for our negotiating position IMO), and Le Pen has increased her following since the last election significantly. The EU will think they are safe. Their arrogance won't allow them to do any different. But if they don't change away from "more EU", 2022 will be interesting.
Jinx said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Thirdly, it's a matter of simple moral decency to be opposed to fascism for anyone with even the merest sense of history about them.
Why? Nazism yes but Fascism itself is merely "An authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization." (quote = Oxford English Dictionary)As such many governments around the world are Fascist and they still have a seat and a vote at the UN? Or is it only "right wing" Fascism that should be opposed?
I bet 90% of people that bang-on about 'fascism' actually have no idea what real fascism really is.
aeropilot said:
Jinx said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Thirdly, it's a matter of simple moral decency to be opposed to fascism for anyone with even the merest sense of history about them.
Why? Nazism yes but Fascism itself is merely "An authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization." (quote = Oxford English Dictionary)As such many governments around the world are Fascist and they still have a seat and a vote at the UN? Or is it only "right wing" Fascism that should be opposed?
I bet 90% of people that bang-on about 'fascism' actually have no idea what real fascism really is.
jjlynn27 said:
Wasn't Le Pen promising retirement at 60 and 33-35h work week? Like it or not, MLP appeals to the 'zomg burka' and 'joe foreigner took my job' brigade. Macron is winning on the platform of 'more EU'.
I think you're being way too simplistic.Her following has increased quite substantially if you can read anything into round 1. There'll be a good chunk of that around burkaism, though she didn't implement these policies
(I wonder if Macron will reverse them...I bet he doesn't) and immigration...but it won't all be IMO.Is Macron overtly "more EU"? Or is he just not noting that he's anti it? I do find it interesting to see so much support for him despite him looking to eat into the 35hr week, and cutting corp tax etc (which I thought would have the majority of French people voting for anyone but him!). I wonder how much of that is genuinely "we dislike MLP's anti-EU stance enough that we'll even put up with that" or "something else"....?
She'll lose round 2 I am certain. But I'm far from convinced that's because the vast majority of French people want more EU. And if that is all Macron offers them, I would bet a fiver that she'll substantially increase her following in 5yrs (and that he'll have a hard time governing).
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