Apple and Irish government collared over tax deal
Discussion
janesmith1950 said:
It seems odd that people's dislike of the EU would see them support a deal that allows Apple, possibly the most cash-rich company in the world, avoid the same corporation tax rules as almost everybody else in Ireland.
Had Ireland stuck by the rules, it may have been that Apple instead located their office in another EU country, such as the UK. One has to assume our adherence to the rules meant we were overlooked in favour of someone happy to deviate.
If the UK was outside of the EU, but still lost out to Ireland, simply because they offered Apple a deal in breach of EU rules, I bet a few pennies that the very same people criticising the EU for enforcing the rules now would instead be criticising them for turning a blind eye.
The issue is sovreignty , if the elected Irish Govt wishes to set a tax rate and agreement with a third party , that should be that, for those to implement or modify as they agree. This is just a tax raid by unnacountable unelected autocrats, potentially costing Ireland thousands of jonbs. Thank God we are getting out the EU Had Ireland stuck by the rules, it may have been that Apple instead located their office in another EU country, such as the UK. One has to assume our adherence to the rules meant we were overlooked in favour of someone happy to deviate.
If the UK was outside of the EU, but still lost out to Ireland, simply because they offered Apple a deal in breach of EU rules, I bet a few pennies that the very same people criticising the EU for enforcing the rules now would instead be criticising them for turning a blind eye.
Hosenbugler said:
The issue is sovreignty , if the elected Irish Govt wishes to set a tax rate and agreement with a third party , that should be that, for those to implement or modify as they agree. This is just a tax raid by unnacountable unelected autocrats, potentially costing Ireland thousands of jonbs. Thank God we are getting out the EU
In joining the EU, governments give away their 'sovreignty' to choose when and how they offer state aid. The EU didn't steal anything, the Irish agreed to give it away.They're free to set tax rates, however within reason they cannot offer state aid to Apple by charging them a lower tax rate than they otherwise would, simply to achieve that aim.
Hosenbugler said:
The issue is sovreignty , if the elected Irish Govt wishes to set a tax rate and agreement with a third party , that should be that, for those to implement or modify as they agree. This is just a tax raid by unnacountable unelected autocrats, potentially costing Ireland thousands of jonbs. Thank God we are getting out the EU
Sovereignty has been handed over that's the problem. Of course if you listen to the lecture by Professor Dougan that the Remainers were keen to share sovereignty hadn't been handed over as all powers were transferred via treaties. Well, let's see how this pans out shall we, and if you can't get those powers back then sovereignty has indeed been lost.
Ireland are in the club and they need to play by the rules, or get out the club.
janesmith1950 said:
Hosenbugler said:
The issue is sovreignty , if the elected Irish Govt wishes to set a tax rate and agreement with a third party , that should be that, for those to implement or modify as they agree. This is just a tax raid by unnacountable unelected autocrats, potentially costing Ireland thousands of jonbs. Thank God we are getting out the EU
In joining the EU, governments give away their 'sovreignty' to choose when and how they offer state aid. The EU didn't steal anything, the Irish agreed to give it away.They're free to set tax rates, however within reason they cannot offer state aid to Apple by charging them a lower tax rate than they otherwise would, simply to achieve that aim.
Hosenbugler said:
Not state aid, a tax agreement between an elected government and a 3rd party, simple as that. This is a graphic illustration of the autocratic interference the unelected unnacountable EU commision can have over elected sovereign Govts. Thank christ we voted to leave. Appaling , dictatorial bullying of an elected Govt.
They aren't a sovereign government, they have signed away the right to set tax levels outside certain thesholds.
Dr Jekyll said:
speedyman said:
13 billion to subsides 5500 jobs, that a lot of money per job, if my maths is right about 2.5 million for each job. wow
If it wasn't for the deal Apple wouldn't be there and neither would the jobs, and Ireland still wouldn't get the 13 billion.
Hosenbugler said:
janesmith1950 said:
Hosenbugler said:
The issue is sovreignty , if the elected Irish Govt wishes to set a tax rate and agreement with a third party , that should be that, for those to implement or modify as they agree. This is just a tax raid by unnacountable unelected autocrats, potentially costing Ireland thousands of jonbs. Thank God we are getting out the EU
In joining the EU, governments give away their 'sovreignty' to choose when and how they offer state aid. The EU didn't steal anything, the Irish agreed to give it away.They're free to set tax rates, however within reason they cannot offer state aid to Apple by charging them a lower tax rate than they otherwise would, simply to achieve that aim.
Corporates are playing 'divide and rule' with national governments over tax, and the governments are too weak to fight back, so they and their taxpayers get shafted.
This is exactly where the EU could actually do something useful and beneficial for its citizens. If corporate tax laws were harmonised across the EU, they would collectively be in a far stronger position to take on the multinationals, present a united front with the US government, and crush offshore tax havens.
It is in no-one's interests for the tech giants to have vast mountains of stockpiled cash sitting offshore which they can't invest or distribute it because that would mean paying tax on it.
Corporates are running rings round governments, and will continue to do so until they agree to work together to fight back.
This is exactly where the EU could actually do something useful and beneficial for its citizens. If corporate tax laws were harmonised across the EU, they would collectively be in a far stronger position to take on the multinationals, present a united front with the US government, and crush offshore tax havens.
It is in no-one's interests for the tech giants to have vast mountains of stockpiled cash sitting offshore which they can't invest or distribute it because that would mean paying tax on it.
Corporates are running rings round governments, and will continue to do so until they agree to work together to fight back.
CaptainSlow said:
Dr Jekyll said:
speedyman said:
13 billion to subsides 5500 jobs, that a lot of money per job, if my maths is right about 2.5 million for each job. wow
If it wasn't for the deal Apple wouldn't be there and neither would the jobs, and Ireland still wouldn't get the 13 billion.The EU should have made it clear to Ireland years ago that this is unacceptable which would have given Apple the Irish government and treasury time to think, appeal or just comply with the EU rolling.
Whilst I think we all want copra's to pay their tax in full, in this case I think the EU had been turning a blind eye but now want to stamp their authority over member states.
The EU needs reforming and this maybe another nail to get the reform going.
Toaster said:
This is not about Jobs, or capitalist vs socialist, this is about where Tax is taken and the law, if Ireland created a financial environment where Apple and others (Google, Amazon etc) can operate with paying low tax is one thing a business will operate according to its surrounding market LAWS. Now if the EU has decided that they need to change those financial laws in Ireland this is something else.
The EU should have made it clear to Ireland years ago that this is unacceptable which would have given Apple the Irish government and treasury time to think, appeal or just comply with the EU rolling.
Whilst I think we all want copra's to pay their tax in full, in this case I think the EU had been turning a blind eye but now want to stamp their authority over member states.
The EU needs reforming and this maybe another nail to get the reform going.
Irish and other member states have to set tax rates inline with EU thresholds, they know this. The EU should have made it clear to Ireland years ago that this is unacceptable which would have given Apple the Irish government and treasury time to think, appeal or just comply with the EU rolling.
Whilst I think we all want copra's to pay their tax in full, in this case I think the EU had been turning a blind eye but now want to stamp their authority over member states.
The EU needs reforming and this maybe another nail to get the reform going.
I'm obviously being a bit hard of thought on this one.
The EU has found against Ireland because it judged that
However the finding then says:
The EU has found against Ireland because it judged that
finding said:
Member States cannot give tax benefits to selected companies – this is illegal under EU state aid rules. The Commission's investigation concluded that Ireland granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which enabled it to pay substantially less tax than other businesses over many years. In fact, this selective treatment allowed Apple to pay an effective corporate tax rate of 1 per cent on its European profits in 2003 down to 0.005 per cent in 2014."
Which I get: the principle isn't the tax rate applied: it's the selectivity of just allowing say Apple to get away with that arrangement.However the finding then says:
finding said:
This selective tax treatment of Apple in Ireland is illegal under EU state aid rules, because it gives Apple a significant advantage over other businesses that are subject to the same national taxation rules. The Commission can order recovery of illegal state aid for a ten-year period preceding the Commission's first request for information in 2013. Ireland must now recover the unpaid taxes in Ireland from Apple for the years 2003 to 2014 of up to €13 billion, plus interest.
In fact, the tax treatment in Ireland enabled Apple to avoid taxation on almost all profits generated by sales of Apple products in the entire EU Single Market. This is due to Apple's decision to record all sales in Ireland rather than in the countries where the products were sold. This structure is however outside the remit of EU state aid control. If other countries were to require Apple to pay more tax on profits of the two companies over the same period under their national taxation rules, this would reduce the amount to be recovered by Ireland.
Would not a simpler solution for Ireland be to allow all Irish domiciled businesses to apply the same principle of sales allocation? Therefore removing Apple's preferential terms and the so called 'state aid' argument but also then allowing Ireland to benefit from applying low corporation tax levels? Obviously this would hammer any corporation tax income paid by Irish companies on non Irish trading, but it seems as valid an outcome as opposed to forcing Apple to set up proper accounting for Sales made to other locales. I'm not suggesting this would be a 'correct' solution from an equity point of view, but it would address the nub of the EU finding? Or am I missing a parrot? In fact, the tax treatment in Ireland enabled Apple to avoid taxation on almost all profits generated by sales of Apple products in the entire EU Single Market. This is due to Apple's decision to record all sales in Ireland rather than in the countries where the products were sold. This structure is however outside the remit of EU state aid control. If other countries were to require Apple to pay more tax on profits of the two companies over the same period under their national taxation rules, this would reduce the amount to be recovered by Ireland.
Bradgate said:
Corporates are playing 'divide and rule' with national governments over tax, and the governments are too weak to fight back, so they and their taxpayers get shafted.
This is exactly where the EU could actually do something useful and beneficial for its citizens. If corporate tax laws were harmonised across the EU, they would collectively be in a far stronger position to take on the multinationals, present a united front with the US government, and crush offshore tax havens.
It is in no-one's interests for the tech giants to have vast mountains of stockpiled cash sitting offshore which they can't invest or distribute it because that would mean paying tax on it.
Corporates are running rings round governments, and will continue to do so until they agree to work together to fight back.
Cant totally disagree however in fairness two things 1) The EU should not have let it go on so long (or even let it happen in the first place) 2) Enforce the change as from 1st of April 2017 or maybe just back date a couple of years it seems so draconian and personally I can't see it being upheld in a court of appeal.............but I could be wrong. This is exactly where the EU could actually do something useful and beneficial for its citizens. If corporate tax laws were harmonised across the EU, they would collectively be in a far stronger position to take on the multinationals, present a united front with the US government, and crush offshore tax havens.
It is in no-one's interests for the tech giants to have vast mountains of stockpiled cash sitting offshore which they can't invest or distribute it because that would mean paying tax on it.
Corporates are running rings round governments, and will continue to do so until they agree to work together to fight back.
Bradgate said:
Corporates are running rings round governments, and will continue to do so until they agree to work together to fight back.
Not all "corporates" just the really massive ones (monetary wise) like Facebook and Google. More powerful than the Govt? Certainly getting there.TX.
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