Jeremy Corbyn Vol. 2
Discussion
Stickyfinger said:
B'stard Child said:
Err what's the alternative in an environment that polarises into a binary choice with two party politics?
1. Don't vote #notmyfault
2. Spoil ballot paper #protestvote
PR is what I'd like to see - every vote has a real value
Or....PR, every vote devalued by turning politics into a grey smoothie1. Don't vote #notmyfault
2. Spoil ballot paper #protestvote
PR is what I'd like to see - every vote has a real value
Goaty Bill 2 said:
Corbyn is committing assisted political suicide with the help of McDonnell. It is a beautiful thing to see. We should embrace it.
I can assure you good doctor that my children, both well under the age of 35 but old enough to vote, are well enough educated to know to be standing on my side of the barricades 'come the revolution'.
Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot are all too old to be around in another five years as political threats. Another blissful thought for the day.
You don't need to love Tories in order to hate Marxists.
And I think you and others are absolutely on the mark; the moderate left will turn away in their droves after these few weeks.
I would respectfully suggest it is attitudes along the lines of yours which led Labour to do some much better than expected in the last election.I can assure you good doctor that my children, both well under the age of 35 but old enough to vote, are well enough educated to know to be standing on my side of the barricades 'come the revolution'.
Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot are all too old to be around in another five years as political threats. Another blissful thought for the day.
You don't need to love Tories in order to hate Marxists.
And I think you and others are absolutely on the mark; the moderate left will turn away in their droves after these few weeks.
It's time for the Conservatives to wake up, smell the coffee, be worried about why Labour, relatively speaking, did so well, and come with strategies to combat them for next time.
BigMon said:
It's time for the Conservatives to wake up, smell the coffee, be worried about why Labour, relatively speaking, did so well, and come with strategies to combat them for next time.
In terms of seats won - they did worse relative to the conservatives than they did in 2010.I also think (looking at the voting pattern) - this election was heavily influenced by feelings about Brexit. The voting patterns were very similar - especially by age to the EU referendum. I think many people got motivated and gave support to Labour as a way of sticking one on the Tories for allowing the Brexit referendum, or as a way of trying to sabotage the negotiation process (and perhaps Brexit itself).
Will this motivation to vote and support for Labour remain once Brexit is done and dusted - I guess we'll have to wait and see.
BigMon said:
I would respectfully suggest it is attitudes along the lines of yours which led Labour to do some much better than expected in the last election.
It's time for the Conservatives to wake up, smell the coffee, be worried about why Labour, relatively speaking, did so well, and come with strategies to combat them for next time.
I agree with this, also I voted Conservative not because I wanted to but because I had to.It's time for the Conservatives to wake up, smell the coffee, be worried about why Labour, relatively speaking, did so well, and come with strategies to combat them for next time.
Politics in the UK has tuned into a pile of nonsense with everyone towing the party line and treading on egg shells, no leadership and no backbone, you cannot please 100% of the electorate but everyone claims they can!
Corbyn successfully engaged and motivated a whole section of the electorate who are normally disinterested in politics. Those people, voting for an ideology, are less interested in botched interviews or minutia of budgets or manifesto commitments (see what little harm was done by Corbyn and Abbott both knowing little about their figures when tested).
When someone believes in an ideology, they will defend it in the face of even the most obvious and factual criticism. In fact, the more you criticise it the more entrenched and determined they become. This is why the Tories' mudslinging at the personalities and mistakes of Labour only served to increase the support of Labour.
The only way to defeat it is to put forward a positive message of what you offer for people, and try to engage those remaining who don't have an ideological affinity to your opposition.
When someone believes in an ideology, they will defend it in the face of even the most obvious and factual criticism. In fact, the more you criticise it the more entrenched and determined they become. This is why the Tories' mudslinging at the personalities and mistakes of Labour only served to increase the support of Labour.
The only way to defeat it is to put forward a positive message of what you offer for people, and try to engage those remaining who don't have an ideological affinity to your opposition.
Moonhawk said:
Will this motivation to vote and support for Labour remain once Brexit is done and dusted - I guess we'll have to wait and see.
This is a big question which no one knows the answer to but the Tories cannot sit back like they did at the election and assume that they will get protest votes back.There needs to be a strong voice which can calmly explain why the Marxist policies put forward by Corbyn and McDonnell will never work. This person needs to be good in front of the camera and not get flustered by awkward questions and put forward alternatives which will benefit the country as a whole. Explaining why we need to tighten our belts etc needs to be done in a calm and simple fashion. All of this should have been done in the run up to the election and whoever ran the campaign should never be employed by the Conservatives again.
I don't know who this could be but I think it needs to be someone who isn't in the forefront at the moment. May, Johnson, Gove etc are all tainted by Brexit and the last election IMO.
Burwood said:
jsf said:
It's not easy to fight the politics of helicopter money with logic.
Quite. If the Conservatives try and throw money at the young, Labour will have them on the run and just throw even more money at it. The dementia tax had a huge impact as did the attacksYou also challenge the notion that scrapping tuition fees is the same as paying of student debt.
Jockman said:
Burwood said:
jsf said:
It's not easy to fight the politics of helicopter money with logic.
Quite. If the Conservatives try and throw money at the young, Labour will have them on the run and just throw even more money at it. The dementia tax had a huge impact as did the attacksYou also challenge the notion that scrapping tuition fees is the same as paying of student debt.
Its hardly surprising either, when you consider how much tax payer money was spent nationalising the bank debt.
jsf said:
Jockman said:
Burwood said:
jsf said:
It's not easy to fight the politics of helicopter money with logic.
Quite. If the Conservatives try and throw money at the young, Labour will have them on the run and just throw even more money at it. The dementia tax had a huge impact as did the attacksYou also challenge the notion that scrapping tuition fees is the same as paying of student debt.
Its hardly surprising either, when you consider how much tax payer money was spent nationalising the bank debt.
KrissKross said:
janesmith1950 said:
When someone believes in an ideology,
Isn't this dangerous, people believing in fairy stories and not facts.Soon the number of stupid people in the population will overtake the intelligent ones, what happens then?
janesmith1950 said:
KrissKross said:
Isn't this dangerous, people believing in fairy stories and not facts.
Soon the number of stupid people in the population will overtake the intelligent ones, what happens then?
Corbyn is Prime Minister.Soon the number of stupid people in the population will overtake the intelligent ones, what happens then?
John McDonnald is Chancellor
And a lot of the PLP MP's will be like bees round the honey pot trying to get places at the high table
janesmith1950 said:
Corbyn successfully engaged and motivated a whole section of the electorate who are normally disinterested in politics. Those people, voting for an ideology, are less interested in botched interviews or minutia of budgets or manifesto commitments (see what little harm was done by Corbyn and Abbott both knowing little about their figures when tested).
When someone believes in an ideology, they will defend it in the face of even the most obvious and factual criticism. In fact, the more you criticise it the more entrenched and determined they become. This is why the Tories' mudslinging at the personalities and mistakes of Labour only served to increase the support of Labour.
The only way to defeat it is to put forward a positive message of what you offer for people, and try to engage those remaining who don't have an ideological affinity to your opposition.
This. All day long.When someone believes in an ideology, they will defend it in the face of even the most obvious and factual criticism. In fact, the more you criticise it the more entrenched and determined they become. This is why the Tories' mudslinging at the personalities and mistakes of Labour only served to increase the support of Labour.
The only way to defeat it is to put forward a positive message of what you offer for people, and try to engage those remaining who don't have an ideological affinity to your opposition.
She lost because:
a) She made it about her thanks to favourable polling about her before she opened her mouth in TV interviews. All the posters were "MP's name - working with Theresa May" so we knew we were voting for her.
b) When her personal polling fell through the floor after the debacle of thinking the media and opposition would welcome honest manifesto promises, the only thing the party thought to do was to sling mud at Corbyn.
At no point did anyone think to espouse Conservative values which may have played well with the 25-35 voters starting out in careers and with families - work hard and we'll help you, encourage inward investment and better jobs follow etc.
What you don't do is lurch to the left on policy, alienating many of your core vote, some of whom simply won't turn out (many of the constituencies she lost were only 10s of votes short) and sling mud at the opposition, giving them the upper hand by simply remaining silent.
Moonhawk said:
BigMon said:
It's time for the Conservatives to wake up, smell the coffee, be worried about why Labour, relatively speaking, did so well, and come with strategies to combat them for next time.
In terms of seats won - they did worse relative to the conservatives than they did in 2010.I also think (looking at the voting pattern) - this election was heavily influenced by feelings about Brexit. The voting patterns were very similar - especially by age to the EU referendum. I think many people got motivated and gave support to Labour as a way of sticking one on the Tories for allowing the Brexit referendum, or as a way of trying to sabotage the negotiation process (and perhaps Brexit itself).
Will this motivation to vote and support for Labour remain once Brexit is done and dusted - I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Once Labour promised lots of free stuff paid for by someone else, and the Tories promised to rob old people of their pensions and houses then the tide turned.
In particular they promised to make students about 50k better off, that buys a lot of votes from students, and parents of students.
janesmith1950 said:
Corbyn successfully engaged and motivated a whole section of the electorate who are normally disinterested in politics.
And they are STILL disinterested in politics.The same goes in Scotland where Salmond and Sturgeon always claimed what a great thing it was that the young were 'engaged' in politics. They were never engaged at all, they were just responding to the free sweeties on offer. So much so the SNP wanted to lower the voting age so they could politically 'groom' some more.
Corbyn followed the same tactics. And lowering the voting age to 16 was even in the Labour manifesto.
98elise said:
Moonhawk said:
BigMon said:
It's time for the Conservatives to wake up, smell the coffee, be worried about why Labour, relatively speaking, did so well, and come with strategies to combat them for next time.
In terms of seats won - they did worse relative to the conservatives than they did in 2010.I also think (looking at the voting pattern) - this election was heavily influenced by feelings about Brexit. The voting patterns were very similar - especially by age to the EU referendum. I think many people got motivated and gave support to Labour as a way of sticking one on the Tories for allowing the Brexit referendum, or as a way of trying to sabotage the negotiation process (and perhaps Brexit itself).
Will this motivation to vote and support for Labour remain once Brexit is done and dusted - I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Once Labour promised lots of free stuff paid for by someone else, and the Tories promised to rob old people of their pensions and houses then the tide turned.
In particular they promised to make students about 50k better off, that buys a lot of votes from students, and parents of students.
In fact if Brexit was a real concern, both UKIP and the Lib Dems would have done well and Labour would have bombed as expected. Too much was made of Brexit because it still hurts the commentariat that the country didn't listen to them, while now most of us just want to get on with things.
It wasn't about Labour promising free stuff though, in the main. It was about Labour giving disillusioned voters something to believe in, many of whom were too young or too disengaged to understand that what they were seeing was the Wizard of Oz, and behind the curtain there were grubby little Marxists who actually want to pitch us back to pre-crash Venezuela and replace the state with their version of a Politburo.
Meanwhile the Conservatives weren't giving anyone a reason to vote for them after 'Strong and Stable' was blown out of the water, they simply sniped on the sidelines while Corbyn dictated the direction.
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