Jeremy Corbyn Vol. 2

[Moonhawk]

BIANCO said:

Can someone please tell Corbyn and labour that general election is over and they can stop campaigning now. For some reason they don't seem to be able to get that they lost.

He hasn't been spending time up at Holyrood has he - I seem to remember wee Jimmy Crankie taking a similar tack not so long ago

Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 25th June 16:21

[Goaty Bill 2]

garyhun said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

I can't answer for Corbyn and McDonnell with any certainty, but it was quite trendy to be a communist in the '50s and '60s as some sort of proof or badge of intellectualism. All part of the counter culture etc. and a somewhat natural extension of earlier socialism.
The brothers Hitchens were active Trotskyists in their youth. Each in their own way ended up quite some distance to the 'right' of centre on many issues.

Our current systems, with their obvious in-built socialist institutions, require constant tweaking and are far from perfect.
A party like Labour can do it's part with a moderate approach; keeping the Tories 'honest' and taking the reins when they screw up, make their own kind of mess, and then see the cycle repeat. (yes I mean they will both mess up)


Einstein defined Insanity as: "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

So why would anyone keep repeating the Marxist experiment?
How many tens of millions have to die before that particular insanity is finally seen as folly?
We have almost entirely done away with Laissez-faire capitalism in the west, because it is cruel and divisive, why cannot Marxism go the same way...

I suppose it will always seem attractive to a substantial portion of the young, the poor, the disenfranchised, and therefore be seen as a route to power for those that are most interested in power for it's own sake.

Good points all round and thanks. I'd almost completely forgotten about the 'trendy' angle!

For the two characters in question, it is fair to say that the tendency had not disappeared in the 70s (their time in University).
The Soviet Union did not formally dissolve until 1991, though the frightening truths had been escaping (compliments of a very progressive Nikita Khrushchev who was soon pushed aside), since the early 60's and most notably in the early 70's, and many intellectuals in the west still openly supported communism.
It's hard for us to think of old Nikita as a major reformer, but he was the architect of the 'de-Stalinisation' process.

Supporting the Soviets rapidly became less trendy once some of the more terrible truths had become widely known.

ETA
That the Soviet Union has been gone for 26 years would partially explain why so few younger people have any residual fear of Marxism.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Sunday 25th June 17:49

[Lance Catamaran]

Corbyn said:

There's a message on the {Glastonbury} wall over there with a message for Trump and do you know what it says? Build bridges not walls

Erm, what? The wall says not to build walls? Does he also know that the wall around the camp site is to stop people gaining illegal entry, the same thing that Trump's wall is proposing to do.

[anonymous-user]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Supporting the Soviets rapidly became less trendy once some of the more terrible truths had become widely known.

Unless you're Diane Abbott!

[P5BNij]

Donkey Of The Damned said:

BIANCO said:

Can someone please tell Corbyn and labour that general election is over and they can stop campaigning now. For some reason they don't seem to be able to get that they lost. They can come up as many policies as they like none of them will be implemented.

Except a General Election sometime in the next year isn't the most unlikely thing. And he has just taken the lead in the polls over the useless, inept Tories.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-cor...

I'm looking forward to incoming Labour government. Get this country back to its former glories.

Jawknee lives!!!

My old man shuttled off this mortal coil two days ago and your post has well and truly made me chuckle. Keep 'em coming!

[gooner1]

Lance Catamaran said:

Erm, what? The wall says not to build walls? Does he also know that the wall around the camp site is to stop people gaining illegal entry, the same thing that Trump's wall is proposing to do.

Well the wall at Glastonbury certainly seems to be working, haven't spotted a single Mexican yet,

[Goaty Bill 2]

garyhun said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Supporting the Soviets rapidly became less trendy once some of the more terrible truths had become widely known.

Unless you're Diane Abbott!

One of the greatest anti-Marxist, pro socialists was after all British.
Orwell makes for ever such easy reading.

Of course one should read 'Animal Farm', and '1984', but don't miss 'The Road to Wigan Pier' as a means to understanding the traditional bitterness of the British working classes of the early 20th century (and before), and the motives for a strong socialist movement in Britain.

For Orwell's motivations for opposing fundamentalist Marxism, and most particularly of course Stalinism, while continuing to support socialism in Britain there is 'Homage to Catalonia'.
That the Spanish civil war was won by Franco's nationalists with the help of German and Italian fascists, is much to the credit of the Spanish Marxists and communists; because precise adherence to the 'correct' ideology matters more than your own country (or winning the war for your country).

[Mothersruin]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

So why would anyone keep repeating the Marxist experiment?

I can't remember where I read it but it made sense to me. The excuse is the previous forms of socialism/Marxism have been the 'wrong' type or have been corrupted before being given the chance to run to it's full form. So these people think they have the right type of socialism and it will all be utopian. But we know it won't because humans are involved.

Same has been said about some religions.

[Rich_W]

mondeoman said:

By that graphic, Labour got a landslide victory.

YouGov are by far the worst of a truly shocking bunch. Not seen any of their polls actually indicate the accurate end result.

[98elise]

Donkey Of The Damned said:

BIANCO said:

Can someone please tell Corbyn and labour that general election is over and they can stop campaigning now. For some reason they don't seem to be able to get that they lost. They can come up as many policies as they like none of them will be implemented.

Except a General Election sometime in the next year isn't the most unlikely thing. And he has just taken the lead in the polls over the useless, inept Tories.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-cor...

I'm looking forward to incoming Labour government. Get this country back to its former glories.

Former glories of Nationalised industries, strong unions, and high taxation?

We're you around in the 70"s? I was and it was st.

Edited by 98elise on Sunday 25th June 19:14

[Donkey Of The Damned]

Rich_W said:

mondeoman said:

By that graphic, Labour got a landslide victory.

YouGov are by far the worst of a truly shocking bunch. Not seen any of their polls actually indicate the accurate end result.

Incorrect. They were consistently showing the vote share gap to be more accurate to the end result and were the only polling organisation to call a Hung Parliament a week before it happened. They were pretty much spot on.

[Goaty Bill 2]

Mothersruin said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

So why would anyone keep repeating the Marxist experiment?

I can't remember where I read it but it made sense to me. The excuse is the previous forms of socialism/Marxism have been the 'wrong' type or have been corrupted before being given the chance to run to it's full form. So these people think they have the right type of socialism and it will all be utopian. But we know it won't because humans are involved.

Same has been said about some religions.

Yes, that old chestnut
"That wasn't real communism"

One must accept that the only way for a Marxist state to exist and survive, is to remove all competition, and One must because bds like me come along and want to change much of it back to the old ways. Maybe not radically, but it would no longer be 'pure' and then will no longer be working 'correctly'.

Once you have accepted that simple truth, you have accepted that all forms of opposition to your ideology must be removed, so that's the opposition parties outlawed, and me in your prison along with many others.
But "that's fascist!" I shout, and you shout back - it is for the greater good of the proletariat, and I am of course a 'reactionary' so I have no opinion worth listening to. I am of a 'criminal' class.

Then you discover that some people in your own party do not hold pure enough views (happens in political parties constantly), and this is bound to cause problems with implementing the plan, so they must be removed. Well they can't be allowed to run around free promoting their incorrect and blasphemous doctrines, so they join me in prison.

Let's imagine though, that a lovely 'fluffy bunny' sort of leader, with a heart as pure as the driven snow is at the head. What could go wrong now?
People. The greedy self-serving ones. They exist in every political movement. So the most dangerous one slaughters our fluffy bunny leader and take charge themselves. Then other sorts of purges must take place, to remove those previously loyal to the fluffy bunny leader, that may try to overthrow the new stronger leader. And then there are those that are also greedy and ambitious and pose a threat and they must be purged too.

Before long our prisons are full to overflowing and so the Outer Hebrides become our Solovetsky and the Gulags have arrived.
Of course we won't rename any islands, or call the system Gulag, those are not are language. Mao and Castro didn't use other people's words either, they used their own and still claim their system was nothing like that one.

The differences are infinitesimal, the story remains the same, time and again for 100 years.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Sunday 25th June 19:08

[mondeoman]

Donkey Of The Damned said:

technodup said:

dimots said:

Personally I'm more inclined towards the universal living wage, but £10 minimum is progressive, as is extending it to 16 year olds...so I'm in favour of it.

Is it still progressive if companies realise a 25yo is likely to be more reliable and productive than a 16yo and as such youth unemployment rises?

'Progressive' is a crock of utter st. Meaningless pish from people who want to be seen as fluffy and caring but espouse ideas which are neither.

Why would an unemployed 25 year old be more reliable and productive than an unemployed 16 year old? One has had 9 years to hold down a job.

Your second paragraph is the usual condescending ball locks from the right which led so many people to vote for progressive parties.

Who said the 25 yro was unemployed?

[otherman]

BIANCO said:

Can someone please tell Corbyn and labour that general election is over and they can stop campaigning now. For some reason they don't seem to be able to get that they lost. They can come up as many policies as they like none of them will be implemented.

A red friend of mine was telling me last night how 100,000 people turned out at Glastonbury to see Corbyn. I suggested maybe they were they for the music and he gatecrashed. But I'm wrong, actually Glastonbury wasn't about the music this year, they al just went to see JC for 3 minutes. They had T shirts and everything.

[mercGLowner]

Donkey Of The Damned said:

Except a General Election sometime in the next year isn't the most unlikely thing. And he has just taken the lead in the polls over the useless, inept Tories.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-cor...

I'm looking forward to incoming Labour government. Get this country back to its former glories.

Is this not an occasion when the PH crowd call 'custard' or something? One month membership of PH, one suspects you drew the short straw from Momentum central office to try and convert the PH massive.

Corbyn/Mcdonnell/Abbott et al and 'former glories'. What exactly are we talking about here?

[technodup]

mondeoman said:

Donkey Of The Damned said:

technodup said:

dimots said:

Personally I'm more inclined towards the universal living wage, but £10 minimum is progressive, as is extending it to 16 year olds...so I'm in favour of it.

Is it still progressive if companies realise a 25yo is likely to be more reliable and productive than a 16yo and as such youth unemployment rises?

'Progressive' is a crock of utter st. Meaningless pish from people who want to be seen as fluffy and caring but espouse ideas which are neither.

Why would an unemployed 25 year old be more reliable and productive than an unemployed 16 year old? One has had 9 years to hold down a job.

Your second paragraph is the usual condescending ball locks from the right which led so many people to vote for progressive parties.

Who said the 25 yro was unemployed?

I did wonder wtf he was on about. Bottom line is, forced to pay the same rate, 99% of employers are going to choose someone with more experience and maturity.

It's one of the arguments against the minimum wage in the first place. Some people simply aren't worth it. To take an extreme example, if you had a disabled person who could only work at half the speed of an able person, but would otherwise benefit from being in a workplace, earning, learning and contributing why should the employer pay them full rate? Measures like this reduce opportunities for disabled (and the young) which could be there if employers weren't held to ransom.

People at every other level of business are paid according to the value they bring. I don't see why that should be any different at the bottom end. Government simply deciding people are worth £x 'just because' isn't something I support. Let's be honest, if you can only find a job paying £5/hr it's not government you should be looking at...

[alfie2244]

mercGLowner said:

Donkey Of The Damned said:

Except a General Election sometime in the next year isn't the most unlikely thing. And he has just taken the lead in the polls over the useless, inept Tories.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-cor...

I'm looking forward to incoming Labour government. Get this country back to its former glories.

Is this not an occasion when the PH crowd call 'custard' or something? One month membership of PH, one suspects you drew the short straw from Momentum central office to try and convert the PH massive.

Corbyn/Mcdonnell/Abbott et al and 'former glories'. What exactly are we talking about here?

JK lives on

[Mr GrimNasty]

Free market capitalism has eradicated 80% of the most serious global poverty in 40 years, what has socialism ever achieved - Venezuela?

Corbyn and his ilk are dangerously delusional.

[Jockman]

Donkey Of The Damned said:

Rich_W said:

mondeoman said:

By that graphic, Labour got a landslide victory.

YouGov are by far the worst of a truly shocking bunch. Not seen any of their polls actually indicate the accurate end result.

Incorrect. They were consistently showing the vote share gap to be more accurate to the end result and were the only polling organisation to call a Hung Parliament a week before it happened. They were pretty much spot on.

You are correct, JK. Welcome back.

IIRC they also showed a 60 seat Cons majority on the eve of the Manifesto launch.

Take that as you will.

[gooner1]

otherman said:

A red friend of mine was telling me last night how 100,000 people turned out at Glastonbury to see Corbyn. I suggested maybe they were they for the music and he gatecrashed. But I'm wrong, actually Glastonbury wasn't about the music this year, they al just went to see JC for 3 minutes. They had T shirts and everything.

Corbyn gatecrashed Glastonbury.