Jeremy Corbyn Vol. 2

[Welshbeef]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/201...


Well well.

Both main parties now in civil war over how to play out Brexit.

It is good JC has given total clarity on the single market question and I respect him for doing so (finally). However this then causes massive problems for labour. Hmmmm uni fees debacle single market clarity deselecting not good at the moment is it.

[Oakey]

edh said:

Amuses me to see posters who I thought prided themselves on their forensic skills and objectivity falling for and repeating the latest Tory spin...

Student debt is different to Student fees. one was in the manifesto, (a pledge) one wasn't. Partial quotes out of context won't save you.

I know it's tough times for you when "none of the above" is the favourite for next Tory party leader, but have some self respect please

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-student-debt_uk_59311bc1e4b075bff0f22306

"Jeremy Corbyn Wants To Wipe Student Debt... But He’s Not Sure How He’s Going To Pay For It"

2nd June 2017.

Regardless of what he actually said, you can see the tweets on there that people believed he was going to wipe all debt:

James Beard @JamesABeard
I've just read Jeremy Corbyn and Labour want to abolish existing student debt as well! #GE2017

Callum @RatchetCal
Jeremy Corbyn has said he will write off every student debt. Say what you like about him you cannot argue with that!!


LG™ @lawrencegritt
"Jeremy Corbyn has heavily implied that he would write off historic student debt, even if you’ve already graduated" (2012 onwards)...

Edited by Oakey on Monday 24th July 09:58

[turbobloke]

edh said:

Amuses me to see posters who I thought prided themselves on their forensic skills and objectivity falling for and repeating the latest Tory spin...

Student debt is different to Student fees. one was in the manifesto, (a pledge) one wasn't. Partial quotes out of context won't save you.

I know it's tough times for you when "none of the above" is the favourite for next Tory party leader, but have some self respect please

Semantics won't save your spin, or Corbyn's.

Pledge or Promise, the new Old Labour game

Jeremy Corbyn admits he was 'unaware' of size of student debt when he pledged to 'deal with it'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/23/jeremy-...

Labour's weasel wordsmithery is well-known and understood - except by gullible students and you it would seem.

[motco]

Isn't he now promising to cap the retirement age to 66? According to the Tory estimate it would cost £250bn by 2045. Puts the student debt cost into the shade somewhat.

Free money to the naive youth, and free money to the Conservative core voters. A cunning plan m'lord! Of course Corbyn will be dead by 2045 anyway.

[edh]

Welshbeef said:

When are the boundary changes going to happen?

Frankly the Torys would not want to have a GE before that - instead after that for an advantage over the status quo. Currently Labour have a significant boundary advantage over Torys.

All we want is a fair level playing field for he next election.

All you want is maximum electoral advantage... unfortunately I don't think any political party acts otherwise TBH.

The analysis I've read suggests that given the GE 2017 result, they wouldn't really help anyway

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/boundaries2018....

"With the new implied results the Conservatives are still short of a majority. They change from being eight seats short to being three seats short, winning 298 out of the new 600 seats. Their DUP partners themselves drop two seats down to seven, so the combined Conservative/DUP grouping increases its Commons majority very slightly from six to ten seats."

Will the DUP vote to reduce their seats? Will any Tory mp vote to abolish his/her seat when the chance is they won't get another one?

[Welshbeef]

edh said:

Amuses me to see posters who I thought prided themselves on their forensic skills and objectivity falling for and repeating the latest Tory spin...

Student debt is different to Student fees. one was in the manifesto, (a pledge) one wasn't. Partial quotes out of context won't save you.

I know it's tough times for you when "none of the above" is the favourite for next Tory party leader, but have some self respect please

Wow you fell for it didn't you.

Read what JC has stated it is formal statements - I can assume the very very vast majority of voters do not read a manifesto instead they like sound bites and oddly a 7 way shouting match.

[edh]

turbobloke said:

edh said:

Amuses me to see posters who I thought prided themselves on their forensic skills and objectivity falling for and repeating the latest Tory spin...

Student debt is different to Student fees. one was in the manifesto, (a pledge) one wasn't. Partial quotes out of context won't save you.

I know it's tough times for you when "none of the above" is the favourite for next Tory party leader, but have some self respect please

Semantics won't save your spin, or Corbyn's.

Pledge or Promise, the new Old Labour game

Jeremy Corbyn admits he was 'unaware' of size of student debt when he pledged to 'deal with it'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/23/jeremy-...

Labour's weasel wordsmithery is well-known and understood - except by gullible students and you it would seem.

Rubbish

Pledge = Manifesto

Spin / weasel words coming from you.You demean yourself with this

Watch the NME interview, he's quite candid about wanting to address the issue of student debt but not having the answers at this point.

[sidicks]

edh said:

All you want is maximum electoral advantage... unfortunately I don't think any political party acts otherwise TBH.

The analysis I've read suggests that given the GE 2017 result, they wouldn't really help anyway

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/boundaries2018....

"With the new implied results the Conservatives are still short of a majority. They change from being eight seats short to being three seats short, winning 298 out of the new 600 seats. Their DUP partners themselves drop two seats down to seven, so the combined Conservative/DUP grouping increases its Commons majority very slightly from six to ten seats."

Will the DUP vote to reduce their seats? Will any Tory mp vote to abolish his/her seat when the chance is they won't get another one?

I think the words you are looking for are 'level playing field'.

[edh]

sidicks said:

edh said:

All you want is maximum electoral advantage... unfortunately I don't think any political party acts otherwise TBH.

The analysis I've read suggests that given the GE 2017 result, they wouldn't really help anyway

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/boundaries2018....

"With the new implied results the Conservatives are still short of a majority. They change from being eight seats short to being three seats short, winning 298 out of the new 600 seats. Their DUP partners themselves drop two seats down to seven, so the combined Conservative/DUP grouping increases its Commons majority very slightly from six to ten seats."

Will the DUP vote to reduce their seats? Will any Tory mp vote to abolish his/her seat when the chance is they won't get another one?

I think the words you are looking for are 'level playing field'.

Which I would suggest would be based on population rather than registered voters.

I recall electoral commission criticism of the rushed cutoff date the Tories chose, and would also cite the large increase in registered voters pre Brexit vote and GE 2017, both unaccounted for in the proposed boundary changes.

[edh]

turbobloke said:

edh said:

Amuses me to see posters who I thought prided themselves on their forensic skills and objectivity falling for and repeating the latest Tory spin...

Student debt is different to Student fees. one was in the manifesto, (a pledge) one wasn't. Partial quotes out of context won't save you.

I know it's tough times for you when "none of the above" is the favourite for next Tory party leader, but have some self respect please

Semantics won't save your spin, or Corbyn's.

Pledge or Promise, the new Old Labour game

Jeremy Corbyn admits he was 'unaware' of size of student debt when he pledged to 'deal with it'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/23/jeremy-...

Labour's weasel wordsmithery is well-known and understood - except by gullible students and you it would seem.

I know you're always keen to use the primary source rather than third party efforts..

"Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

Read more at http://www.nme.com/features/jeremy-corbyn-intervie...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5jS56gMMDc

He was very careful with his words there.

[sidicks]

edh said:

Which I would suggest would be based on population rather than registered voters.

I recall electoral commission criticism of the rushed cutoff date the Tories chose, and would also cite the large increase in registered voters pre Brexit vote and GE 2017, both unaccounted for in the proposed boundary changes.

Why would you base it on population, given that the population continues people not eligible to vote in the election?

Your second point is very valid.

[sidicks]

edh said:

I know you're always keen to use the primary source rather than third party efforts..

"Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.."

Read more at http://www.nme.com/features/jeremy-corbyn-intervie...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5jS56gMMDc

He was very careful with his words there.

So when he said he would 'deal with it', what he actually meant was that he'd make ambiguous 'promises' which would influence young voters, but subsequently renege on those promises?

Economically, what has changed since the election that he's suddenly unaware of the costs of his suggestions? The £100bn+ figure was discussed prior to the election.

[edh]

sidicks said:

edh said:

Which I would suggest would be based on population rather than registered voters.

I recall electoral commission criticism of the rushed cutoff date the Tories chose, and would also cite the large increase in registered voters pre Brexit vote and GE 2017, both unaccounted for in the proposed boundary changes.

Why would you base it on population, given that the population continues people not eligible to vote in the election?

Your second point is very valid.

to be clearer - population of voting age... Even if not currently registered, therefore not eligible, they are potential voters.

If we have universal suffrage I think we should do everything we can to get people engaged, registered and voting.

[Oakey]

edh said:

I know you're always keen to use the primary source rather than third party efforts..

"Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

Read more at http://www.nme.com/features/jeremy-corbyn-intervie...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5jS56gMMDc

He was very careful with his words there.

Right, and then the people voting for him interpreted that as "Jezza's going to wipe all student debt!", as evidenced by some of the tweets above.

[Moonhawk]

edh said:

Amuses me to see posters who I thought prided themselves on their forensic skills and objectivity falling for and repeating the latest Tory spin...

Student debt is different to Student fees. one was in the manifesto, (a pledge) one wasn't. Partial quotes out of context won't save you.

I know it's tough times for you when "none of the above" is the favourite for next Tory party leader, but have some self respect please

It was never a conservative manifesto pledge to not have a cap on social care funding either - yet the left screamed "u-turn" as soon as one was suggested.

Even though it was not a Labour manifesto pledge to write off student debt - it was strongly implied in the wider election campaign. Labour were happy for students to interpret it that way. Why did this clarification not come before the GE if there was never any intention of writing the debts off.

Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 24th July 10:25

[edh]

sidicks said:

edh said:

I know you're always keen to use the primary source rather than third party efforts..

"Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.."

Read more at http://www.nme.com/features/jeremy-corbyn-intervie...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5jS56gMMDc

He was very careful with his words there.

So when he said he would 'deal with it', what he actually meant was that he'd make ambiguous 'promises' which would influence young voters, but subsequently renege on those promises?

Economically, what has changed since the election that he's suddenly unaware of the costs of his suggestions? The £100bn+ figure was discussed prior to the election.

I still fail to see what promise he made apart from to seriously address the issue of student debt once in office. Not a manifesto commitment unlike that given on student fees.

"I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage"

or even this excerpt which suggests the focus will be on the tranche who paid 9k pa fees

"And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after."

[turbobloke]

We'll have to wait and see what students make of it at the next election, whether they continue to fall for it in large numbers or see sense.

[sidicks]

edh said:

I still fail to see what promise he made apart from to seriously address the issue of student debt once in office. Not a manifesto commitment unlike that given on student fees.

"I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage"

or even this excerpt which suggests the focus will be on the tranche who paid 9k pa fees

"And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after."

Isn't the debt lready cancelled after 30 years or something? Was he really suggesting to cancel the debt after 50 years instead?

[edh]

sidicks said:

edh said:

I still fail to see what promise he made apart from to seriously address the issue of student debt once in office. Not a manifesto commitment unlike that given on student fees.

"I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage"

or even this excerpt which suggests the focus will be on the tranche who paid 9k pa fees

"And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after."

Isn't the debt lready cancelled after 30 years or something? Was he really suggesting to cancel the debt after 50 years instead?

Yes it is, and that particular idea doesn't seem at all sensible does it? i.e. we don't know how to fix this yet, or "I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage"

AFAIK ~50% of student debts are forecast to be unrecoverable, so there is a massive future cost to be borne anyway.

[edh]

ash73 said:

The manifestos of the major parties should be costed independently by an financial auditor to clarify exactly how much it will cost.

AFAIK Labour asked for OBR to do this, Tories refused.