Discussion
Deptford Draylons said:
Because it doesn't work, near impossible to enforce and probably because rounding up foreigners and deporting them for not having a job after 3 months would send you and others on PH in a Nazi tourettes outrage that even Ken Livingstone would find embarrassing.
You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bulls
t any longer.
The government is incompetent, I agree.You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bulls
t any longer. Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Because it doesn't work, near impossible to enforce and probably because rounding up foreigners and deporting them for not having a job after 3 months would send you and others on PH in a Nazi tourettes outrage that even Ken Livingstone would find embarrassing.
You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bullst any longer.
The government is incompetent, I agree.You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bulls
t any longer. pgh said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
As ever, there is debate & some assumption around the subject & research into it when delaing with large numbers but overall, I think I can make the claim without Sheriff Rosco P Coltrane running me out of town.
https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-...
Thanks!https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-...
As you say it all comes down to the assumptions. Will read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22... later today.
You might as well say, do young fit EU migrants with no dependents earning more than £100K who come here for 1 year, pay more in tax than they cost.
The bleeding obvious answer is determined by the scope of the question.
However, the true cost of all EU and all other migration is a massive overall drain.
Edited by Mr GrimNasty on Thursday 22 June 10:41
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Because it doesn't work, near impossible to enforce and probably because rounding up foreigners and deporting them for not having a job after 3 months would send you and others on PH in a Nazi tourettes outrage that even Ken Livingstone would find embarrassing.
You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bullst any longer.
The government is incompetent, I agree.You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bulls
t any longer. Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Because it doesn't work, near impossible to enforce and probably because rounding up foreigners and deporting them for not having a job after 3 months would send you and others on PH in a Nazi tourettes outrage that even Ken Livingstone would find embarrassing.
You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bullst any longer.
The government is incompetent, I agree.You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bulls
t any longer. I'm always keen to listen to people who tell me not to worry because systems are in place and who advocate them, but who then say they have no knowledge or understanding of them.
So lets look at it a little closer. Migrants who haven't been working for 3 months can be rounded up and deported and you approve. So it sounds like there would have to be some lists of migrants and supplied details from employers as to who they employ and when they are not employing and so on. Armed with this knowledge and knowing that someone hasn't been working, do they get a letter asking them to leave, a knock at the door at 6am and arrested, detained and deported with or without some kinda appeals process ? Out of 3.2 million EU migrants, it seems not 1 has been subject to this.
I'll credit you with being smart enough to know its an unworkable idea that the public would not tolerate , even if you had such information on migrants and the will to pick them up and kick them out, but you do insult peoples intelligence by citing this silly control as an answer and give silly disingenuous replies when asked to stand by it. Be nice first by not treating people as fools that you can con easily.
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Because it doesn't work, near impossible to enforce and probably because rounding up foreigners and deporting them for not having a job after 3 months would send you and others on PH in a Nazi tourettes outrage that even Ken Livingstone would find embarrassing.
You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bullst any longer.
The government is incompetent, I agree.You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bulls
t any longer. I'm always keen to listen to people who tell me not to worry because systems are in place and who advocate them, but who then say they have no knowledge or understanding of them.
So lets look at it a little closer. Migrants who haven't been working for 3 months can be rounded up and deported and you approve. So it sounds like there would have to be some lists of migrants and supplied details from employers as to who they employ and when they are not employing and so on. Armed with this knowledge and knowing that someone hasn't been working, do they get a letter asking them to leave, a knock at the door at 6am and arrested, detained and deported with or without some kinda appeals process ? Out of 3.2 million EU migrants, it seems not 1 has been subject to this.
I'll credit you with being smart enough to know its an unworkable idea that the public would not tolerate , even if you had such information on migrants and the will to pick them up and kick them out, but you do insult peoples intelligence by citing this silly control as an answer and give silly disingenuous replies when asked to stand by it. Be nice first by not treating people as fools that you can con easily.
Eddie Strohacker said:
Eh? What are you on about? I'm advocating nothing. I'm saying simply (for the eleventeenth time) that people who wail at the EU for forcing us to take hordes of benefit scrounging immigrants don't have the full picture. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nope, you said the government doesn't enforce it and were asked why you thought that was and how it would ever work. I put forward that it was never going to work and the tools needed to make it work would never be accepted and the enforcement of it was unpalatable to the public. Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Eh? What are you on about? I'm advocating nothing. I'm saying simply (for the eleventeenth time) that people who wail at the EU for forcing us to take hordes of benefit scrounging immigrants don't have the full picture. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nope, you said the government doesn't enforce it and were asked why you thought that was and how it would ever work. I put forward that it was never going to work and the tools needed to make it work would never be accepted and the enforcement of it was unpalatable to the public. (ETA bloody double negatives..)
Edited by andy_s on Thursday 22 June 11:14
p1stonhead said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Because it doesn't work, near impossible to enforce and probably because rounding up foreigners and deporting them for not having a job after 3 months would send you and others on PH in a Nazi tourettes outrage that even Ken Livingstone would find embarrassing.
You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bullst any longer.
The government is incompetent, I agree.You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bulls
t any longer. I'm always keen to listen to people who tell me not to worry because systems are in place and who advocate them, but who then say they have no knowledge or understanding of them.
So lets look at it a little closer. Migrants who haven't been working for 3 months can be rounded up and deported and you approve. So it sounds like there would have to be some lists of migrants and supplied details from employers as to who they employ and when they are not employing and so on. Armed with this knowledge and knowing that someone hasn't been working, do they get a letter asking them to leave, a knock at the door at 6am and arrested, detained and deported with or without some kinda appeals process ? Out of 3.2 million EU migrants, it seems not 1 has been subject to this.
I'll credit you with being smart enough to know its an unworkable idea that the public would not tolerate , even if you had such information on migrants and the will to pick them up and kick them out, but you do insult peoples intelligence by citing this silly control as an answer and give silly disingenuous replies when asked to stand by it. Be nice first by not treating people as fools that you can con easily.
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Because it doesn't work, near impossible to enforce and probably because rounding up foreigners and deporting them for not having a job after 3 months would send you and others on PH in a Nazi tourettes outrage that even Ken Livingstone would find embarrassing.
You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bullst any longer.
The government is incompetent, I agree.You advocate a scheme you know not to work and tell people systems are in place. Sorry, people aren't buying that bulls
t any longer. I'm always keen to listen to people who tell me not to worry because systems are in place and who advocate them, but who then say they have no knowledge or understanding of them.
So lets look at it a little closer. Migrants who haven't been working for 3 months can be rounded up and deported and you approve. So it sounds like there would have to be some lists of migrants and supplied details from employers as to who they employ and when they are not employing and so on. Armed with this knowledge and knowing that someone hasn't been working, do they get a letter asking them to leave, a knock at the door at 6am and arrested, detained and deported with or without some kinda appeals process ? Out of 3.2 million EU migrants, it seems not 1 has been subject to this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-c...
And the multiple sources in various media (no bias here) that indicate rough sleepers are being arrested and potentially deported.
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/eu-migrants-sleepi...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mig...
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/07/ch...
http://immigrantmagazine.co.uk/inactive-migrants-f...
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/767632/homeless-m...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-379097...
Deptford Draylons said:
I'll credit you with being smart enough to know its an unworkable idea that the public would not tolerate , even if you had such information on migrants and the will to pick them up and kick them out, but you do insult peoples intelligence by citing this silly control as an answer and give silly disingenuous replies when asked to stand by it. Be nice first by not treating people as fools that you can con easily.
I don't think it was unworkable - I just think that it wasn't pursued as much pre referendum.......Deptford Draylons said:
Nope, you said the government doesn't enforce it and were asked why you thought that was and how it would ever work. I put forward that it was never going to work and the tools needed to make it work would never be accepted and the enforcement of it was unpalatable to the public.
No I wasn't you simply asked me how it would work & I said I didn't know. I could not have given you a straighter answer if I tried but you still said I was dodging the question. You didn't ask e why I thought that was & in any event, if you had and had also bothered to read even the one preceding page, you'd have found I answered the same question. So, it's either goading or incomprehension you're displaying. I'll leave you to tell me which.Murph7355 said:
Mario149 said:
I think the point is no-one even bothered to try because the market sorts itself out. As I've said elsewhere, I guarantee that if we implement some sort of border controls while at the same time issuing visas for all the businesses that ask for them in order to ensure our economy functions correctly, we'll end up with as near as makes no practical difference the same levels of immigration, just with the extra cost, complexity and lag of managing the new system.
That assumes that all businesses who ask will get (in the long run). If some businesses don't get, they'll need to find their resources elsewhere (or fold).
Remember nobody is talking about restricting the high value resources.
Jinx said:
Mario149 said:
I think the point is no-one even bothered to try because the market sorts itself out. As I've said elsewhere, I guarantee that if we implement some sort of border controls while at the same time issuing visas for all the businesses that ask for them in order to ensure our economy functions correctly, we'll end up with as near as makes no practical difference the same levels of immigration, just with the extra cost, complexity and lag of managing the new system.
That's the false premise bit. Under the current system (non-EU) there are some pretty tight rules under the granting of work visa's (I don't think coffee maker at Costa is included). So the argument "it will all be the same anyway so let's not change anything" is based on a false premise.andy_s said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Eh? What are you on about? I'm advocating nothing. I'm saying simply (for the eleventeenth time) that people who wail at the EU for forcing us to take hordes of benefit scrounging immigrants don't have the full picture. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nope, you said the government doesn't enforce it and were asked why you thought that was and how it would ever work. I put forward that it was never going to work and the tools needed to make it work would never be accepted and the enforcement of it was unpalatable to the public. Lets say you have the information ( we don't ) that fifty thousand EU migrants don't comply currently and are eligible to be asked to leave. I'd suggest that the minute you try and deport anyone under this rule and in large numbers you'll have a media storm of Nazi calling etc.
Finding illegal migrants is easy to do. The reason its done in tiny numbers is because it costs a fortune to and takes years to do. Letting people in with rules that obviously don't work is a bad idea.
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Nope, you said the government doesn't enforce it and were asked why you thought that was and how it would ever work. I put forward that it was never going to work and the tools needed to make it work would never be accepted and the enforcement of it was unpalatable to the public.
No I wasn't you simply asked me how it would work & I said I didn't know. I could not have given you a straighter answer if I tried but you still said I was dodging the question. You didn't ask e why I thought that was & in any event, if you had and had also bothered to read even the one preceding page, you'd have found I answered the same question. So, it's either goading or incomprehension you're displaying. I'll leave you to tell me which.Deptford Draylons said:
andy_s said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Eh? What are you on about? I'm advocating nothing. I'm saying simply (for the eleventeenth time) that people who wail at the EU for forcing us to take hordes of benefit scrounging immigrants don't have the full picture. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nope, you said the government doesn't enforce it and were asked why you thought that was and how it would ever work. I put forward that it was never going to work and the tools needed to make it work would never be accepted and the enforcement of it was unpalatable to the public. Lets say you have the information ( we don't ) that fifty thousand EU migrants don't comply currently and are eligible to be asked to leave. I'd suggest that the minute you try and deport anyone under this rule and in large numbers you'll have a media storm of Nazi calling etc.
Finding illegal migrants is easy to do. The reason its done in tiny numbers is because it costs a fortune to and takes years to do. Letting people in with rules that obviously don't work is a bad idea.
Deptford Draylons said:
Again, you are promoting something you know won't work and wouldn't be enforceable or palatable to the public. Simply saying the government has that power and we should ask them why they don't enforce it, is to be rather disingenuous. If you promote it as a power that helps control poor immigration, it doesn't seem unreasonable if people ask you if its workable or you have the first clue about it.
Promoting? It's incomprehension then. I'm promoting nothing & that's the second time this morning I've told you that. On the other hand, you are saying any such system would have the media calling everyone involved Nazis. So if it's disingenuous you want, the easy thing to point out is I'm dealing in the present where you're making dire predictions about the future. p1stonhead said:
Deptford Draylons said:
andy_s said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Eh? What are you on about? I'm advocating nothing. I'm saying simply (for the eleventeenth time) that people who wail at the EU for forcing us to take hordes of benefit scrounging immigrants don't have the full picture. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nope, you said the government doesn't enforce it and were asked why you thought that was and how it would ever work. I put forward that it was never going to work and the tools needed to make it work would never be accepted and the enforcement of it was unpalatable to the public. Lets say you have the information ( we don't ) that fifty thousand EU migrants don't comply currently and are eligible to be asked to leave. I'd suggest that the minute you try and deport anyone under this rule and in large numbers you'll have a media storm of Nazi calling etc.
Finding illegal migrants is easy to do. The reason its done in tiny numbers is because it costs a fortune to and takes years to do. Letting people in with rules that obviously don't work is a bad idea.
Telling people this rule, of possibly being deported after 3 months , is a check in place and open to the government, is simply and on paper argument where the reality of it is totally different. The rule exists but is quite clearly not workable as it would require detailed information and the willingness to enforce it, both of which don't exist.
Lets speculate and say employers were giving up detailed info on migrant workers and 50k migrants currently didn't comply and were eligible to be asked to leave. Do you send them a letter and ask them, go kick the door in and detain them, allow an appeals process ? Its never going to happen, is it ?
Deptford Draylons said:
Having an immigration policy where people apply and are assessed is what's needed. The need to deport having this will be much reduced from those having been legally allowed in.
Telling people this rule, of possibly being deported after 3 months , is a check in place and open to the government, is simply and on paper argument where the reality of it is totally different. The rule exists but is quite clearly not workable as it would require detailed information and the willingness to enforce it, both of which don't exist.
Lets speculate and say employers were giving up detailed info on migrant workers and 50k migrants currently didn't comply and were eligible to be asked to leave. Do you send them a letter and ask them, go kick the door in and detain them, allow an appeals process ? Its never going to happen, is it ?
So what do you do with the 50k migrant workers post-Brexit? Telling people this rule, of possibly being deported after 3 months , is a check in place and open to the government, is simply and on paper argument where the reality of it is totally different. The rule exists but is quite clearly not workable as it would require detailed information and the willingness to enforce it, both of which don't exist.
Lets speculate and say employers were giving up detailed info on migrant workers and 50k migrants currently didn't comply and were eligible to be asked to leave. Do you send them a letter and ask them, go kick the door in and detain them, allow an appeals process ? Its never going to happen, is it ?
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