Discussion
crankedup said:
Your first two words sum it up perfectly - 'No but'. 
As for Human Rights, you do realise that this represents a significant factor, or perhaps you don't. It's easy to be snotty and arrogant so give it a rest mate and so will I.
Come off it Cranky! We were talking about the government's failure to enforce it's own laws on fom & when you couldn't make that work, you went off on one about human rights!As for Human Rights, you do realise that this represents a significant factor, or perhaps you don't. It's easy to be snotty and arrogant so give it a rest mate and so will I.
Do me a favour, no one's being snotty apart from that south London bellend!
crankedup said:
p1stonhead said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Jinx said:
So how does that work then? And with free movement how do you stop them turning around the next day and coming back? It's one of those pointless nods to sovereignty that the EU makes when in practice the EU remains supreme.
Ummm....It's the existing freedom of movement rules. The point being made is the UK Government chooses not to enforce them. The question you should be asking is why not?
t. That was the point being made.p1stonhead said:
Never said it was easy, thats probably why we dont seem to use it. But people seem to think we physically cant becuase of freedom of movement when in fact thats absolute bullst. That was the point being made.
Me neither. I've said all day long it exists at the government's convenience & they don't enforce. Not once have I speculated why they don't, only that they don't. In return for that, I've been roundly abused by all & sundry, not that I give a toss, but it speaks volumes about the quality of that side of the debate.t. That was the point being made.
Eddie Strohacker said:
Me neither. I've said all day long it exists at the government's convenience & they don't enforce. Not once have I speculated why they don't, only that they don't. In return for that, I've been roundly abused by all & sundry, not that I give a toss, but it speaks volumes about the quality of that side of the debate.
As you can see the PH army of anti FOML is out in full force hoping if they keep shouting loud enough everyone will believe them.You are correct the UK can make EU immigrants leave if they have not found work within 3 months but asked why the government do not enforce the rules. The answer is simple they do not need to because the process is carried out by economics. A EU immigrant entering the UK looking for work needs some where to live, food, and the ability to get to interviews and eventually work. (I know one of the posters on here will say they are all living rough around Boston but I suspect that’s a tiny amount who may not even come from the rEU). The UK is an expensive country friends/parents may help with money, those already living here may offer a sofa for a few nights. The important thing is the EU immigrant job seeker is not entitled to any benefits. They can get job seekers after 3 months but I understand that’s now being refused because after 3 months they cannot job seek!
So the fact is most EU immigrants looking for work need to find work quickly, well within 3 months or the money runs out and they have to go home. It’s actually the capitalist way of running an immigration policy.
Mrr T said:
As you can see the PH army of anti FOML is out in full force hoping if they keep shouting loud enough everyone will believe them.
You are correct the UK can make EU immigrants leave if they have not found work within 3 months but asked why the government do not enforce the rules. The answer is simple they do not need to because the process is carried out by economics. A EU immigrant entering the UK looking for work needs some where to live, food, and the ability to get to interviews and eventually work. (I know one of the posters on here will say they are all living rough around Boston but I suspect that’s a tiny amount who may not even come from the rEU). The UK is an expensive country friends/parents may help with money, those already living here may offer a sofa for a few nights. The important thing is the EU immigrant job seeker is not entitled to any benefits. They can get job seekers after 3 months but I understand that’s now being refused because after 3 months they cannot job seek!
So the fact is most EU immigrants looking for work need to find work quickly, well within 3 months or the money runs out and they have to go home. It’s actually the capitalist way of running an immigration policy.
Yep, I said a few pages earlier it's a simple calculation of the cost of doing business, there is no incentive for the government to run the system as is because it's cheaper to let the majority find work & pay in to the system.You are correct the UK can make EU immigrants leave if they have not found work within 3 months but asked why the government do not enforce the rules. The answer is simple they do not need to because the process is carried out by economics. A EU immigrant entering the UK looking for work needs some where to live, food, and the ability to get to interviews and eventually work. (I know one of the posters on here will say they are all living rough around Boston but I suspect that’s a tiny amount who may not even come from the rEU). The UK is an expensive country friends/parents may help with money, those already living here may offer a sofa for a few nights. The important thing is the EU immigrant job seeker is not entitled to any benefits. They can get job seekers after 3 months but I understand that’s now being refused because after 3 months they cannot job seek!
So the fact is most EU immigrants looking for work need to find work quickly, well within 3 months or the money runs out and they have to go home. It’s actually the capitalist way of running an immigration policy.
The underlying reason why this is so contentious here is because it's more than some rabid Brexites can stomach to admit that the fault lies with the UK than the hated EU, so they'll argue it night & day.
Deptford Draylons said:
Glad it was entertainment to you, but does seem to suggest you're easily amused.
I'm, indeed, easily amused by simple creatures. Kippers and 'i'm not a kipper but I worship Farage' alike. I'm also easily amused by dimwits who blame EU for all the ills of this world and want to give more power to the same govt that actually failed to enforce available legislation. pgh said:
Whilst it would be truly fantastic if this was the case, I have to view this claim with a skeptical eye. Do you have any data/research behind this claim please?
Using the information here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15... an individual needs to be earning a very healthy salary in order to be considered a net contributor. I can't imagine that migrants as a whole average £40k+ salaries, it seems this would need to be the case for your claim to stand up.
Very happy to look at any data you have - it would be truly awesome if all of the people coming here were indeed contributing.
While I cant answer the question decicively it should be noted that for me to be tax neutral I'd have to pay back for my birth, nursery, early education and lots of healthcare.Using the information here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15... an individual needs to be earning a very healthy salary in order to be considered a net contributor. I can't imagine that migrants as a whole average £40k+ salaries, it seems this would need to be the case for your claim to stand up.
Very happy to look at any data you have - it would be truly awesome if all of the people coming here were indeed contributing.
A migrant that arrives the their 20's pays the same tax as me on income but has already cost the state less. So it's likely that their break-even figure is lower.
Mario149 said:
So the alternative to issuing visas we need is economic self harm. Lovely.
Economic self harm to the company owner who can no longer get away with paying rock bottom due to an oversupply of resources maybe. If there's a genuine shortage of resource for roles at a level that the employees are supporting themselves fully then they'll get visas.
I'm not a fan of quotas. But I am equally not a fan of free for alls as "free" is always a misnomer
Freedom of movement is not a necessity to be successful in business/trade. If it was, only 28 nations on earth would be making a success of things. And that is very much not the case whichever way you look at it.
glazbagun said:
pgh said:
Whilst it would be truly fantastic if this was the case, I have to view this claim with a skeptical eye. Do you have any data/research behind this claim please?
Using the information here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15... an individual needs to be earning a very healthy salary in order to be considered a net contributor. I can't imagine that migrants as a whole average £40k+ salaries, it seems this would need to be the case for your claim to stand up.
Very happy to look at any data you have - it would be truly awesome if all of the people coming here were indeed contributing.
While I cant answer the question decicively it should be noted that for me to be tax neutral I'd have to pay back for my birth, nursery, early education and lots of healthcare.Using the information here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15... an individual needs to be earning a very healthy salary in order to be considered a net contributor. I can't imagine that migrants as a whole average £40k+ salaries, it seems this would need to be the case for your claim to stand up.
Very happy to look at any data you have - it would be truly awesome if all of the people coming here were indeed contributing.
A migrant that arrives the their 20's pays the same tax as me on income but has already cost the state less. So it's likely that their break-even figure is lower.
One point I'd make is that for quantifying someones fiscal contribution to society in terms of paying towards government spending, it's surely not as straight-forward as just looking at personal tax contributions. Any working class employee is by definition under-paid, for the company that they work for to be profitable - they will add more value than they are renumerated for. If someone owned this said company they could conceivably be renumerated handsomely for doing so and pay a significant amount in income tax, even if the actual "work" they perform for this is minimal. That contribution wouldn't have been possible without the minimum wage guys on the factory/office/shop/restaurant/etc. floor.
Mrr T said:
As you can see the PH army of anti FOML is out in full force hoping if they keep shouting loud enough everyone will believe them.
You are correct the UK can make EU immigrants leave if they have not found work within 3 months but asked why the government do not enforce the rules. The answer is simple they do not need to because the process is carried out by economics. A EU immigrant entering the UK looking for work needs some where to live, food, and the ability to get to interviews and eventually work. (I know one of the posters on here will say they are all living rough around Boston but I suspect that’s a tiny amount who may not even come from the rEU). The UK is an expensive country friends/parents may help with money, those already living here may offer a sofa for a few nights. The important thing is the EU immigrant job seeker is not entitled to any benefits. They can get job seekers after 3 months but I understand that’s now being refused because after 3 months they cannot job seek!
So the fact is most EU immigrants looking for work need to find work quickly, well within 3 months or the money runs out and they have to go home. It’s actually the capitalist way of running an immigration policy.
Not actually accurate as the EU migrant in question can register as self employedYou are correct the UK can make EU immigrants leave if they have not found work within 3 months but asked why the government do not enforce the rules. The answer is simple they do not need to because the process is carried out by economics. A EU immigrant entering the UK looking for work needs some where to live, food, and the ability to get to interviews and eventually work. (I know one of the posters on here will say they are all living rough around Boston but I suspect that’s a tiny amount who may not even come from the rEU). The UK is an expensive country friends/parents may help with money, those already living here may offer a sofa for a few nights. The important thing is the EU immigrant job seeker is not entitled to any benefits. They can get job seekers after 3 months but I understand that’s now being refused because after 3 months they cannot job seek!
So the fact is most EU immigrants looking for work need to find work quickly, well within 3 months or the money runs out and they have to go home. It’s actually the capitalist way of running an immigration policy.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-...
And as pointed out in numerous threads prior to the referendum result "self employed" has included big issue sellers and scrap metal dealers. Much though it might be difficult to do without the economic miracle such migration will bring I am sure in time the economy will find a way to manage.
JagLover said:
Mrr T said:
As you can see the PH army of anti FOML is out in full force hoping if they keep shouting loud enough everyone will believe them.
You are correct the UK can make EU immigrants leave if they have not found work within 3 months but asked why the government do not enforce the rules. The answer is simple they do not need to because the process is carried out by economics. A EU immigrant entering the UK looking for work needs some where to live, food, and the ability to get to interviews and eventually work. (I know one of the posters on here will say they are all living rough around Boston but I suspect that’s a tiny amount who may not even come from the rEU). The UK is an expensive country friends/parents may help with money, those already living here may offer a sofa for a few nights. The important thing is the EU immigrant job seeker is not entitled to any benefits. They can get job seekers after 3 months but I understand that’s now being refused because after 3 months they cannot job seek!
So the fact is most EU immigrants looking for work need to find work quickly, well within 3 months or the money runs out and they have to go home. It’s actually the capitalist way of running an immigration policy.
Not actually accurate as the EU migrant in question can register as self employedYou are correct the UK can make EU immigrants leave if they have not found work within 3 months but asked why the government do not enforce the rules. The answer is simple they do not need to because the process is carried out by economics. A EU immigrant entering the UK looking for work needs some where to live, food, and the ability to get to interviews and eventually work. (I know one of the posters on here will say they are all living rough around Boston but I suspect that’s a tiny amount who may not even come from the rEU). The UK is an expensive country friends/parents may help with money, those already living here may offer a sofa for a few nights. The important thing is the EU immigrant job seeker is not entitled to any benefits. They can get job seekers after 3 months but I understand that’s now being refused because after 3 months they cannot job seek!
So the fact is most EU immigrants looking for work need to find work quickly, well within 3 months or the money runs out and they have to go home. It’s actually the capitalist way of running an immigration policy.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-...
And as pointed out in numerous threads prior to the referendum result "self employed" has included big issue sellers and scrap metal dealers. Much though it might be difficult to do without the economic miracle such migration will bring I am sure in time the economy will find a way to manage.
Yes you can set up as self-employed but the site is clear you do need to demonstrate that you are genuinely self-employed. Big issue sellers and scrap merchants maybe genuinely self-employed. A big issue seller earns £1.25 a magazine. Sell 25 a day 7 days a week and that about £11k a year.
Also its worth noting that only make you eligible for in work benefit wish are normally zero unless you have children living with you.
Jockman said:
I especially enjoyed the paragraph which said:". . . the crisis had been caused by doctors and nurses going part-time or leaving the NHS, not because Britain was not training enough staff."
India is a closing market for the likes of nurses, and doctors come to that. Other countries are after them as well, some of which have far superior pay and conditions.
Derek Smith said:
Jockman said:
I especially enjoyed the paragraph which said:". . . the crisis had been caused by doctors and nurses going part-time or leaving the NHS, not because Britain was not training enough staff."
India is a closing market for the likes of nurses, and doctors come to that. Other countries are after them as well, some of which have far superior pay and conditions.
As for nurses, so, we now have less trained nurses coming in, but we'll replace them with untrained ones, where we are going to pay for their training which is going to be used for very short period of time before they go back. Sounds like a winning plan to keep NHS budget in check and get the necessary staff.
jjlynn27 said:
We had this already on jd contract thread. I spoke recently to a friend who changed career from NHS doc to consultant at McKinsey. 3x (actually three times) salary, lot less responsibility and 'at social gatherings I don't have to listen to 'jokes' about people being my bosses as they pay my salary'.
As for nurses, so, we now have less trained nurses coming in, but we'll replace them with untrained ones, where we are going to pay for their training which is going to be used for very short period of time before they go back. Sounds like a winning plan to keep NHS budget in check and get the necessary staff.
It's nonsensical. I have a daughter who is a midwife. She's thinking of leaving the NHS and starting up her own business as an adviser to pre- post-natal mothers. The wait for her to build up her company won't cost as she will work for an agency where she will, at least at the present rates (which she feels are unsustainable) earn just a bit less for just over half the hours. Oddly enough, she's mentioned the irritation about pensions, but not salary, being brought up in conversation. As for nurses, so, we now have less trained nurses coming in, but we'll replace them with untrained ones, where we are going to pay for their training which is going to be used for very short period of time before they go back. Sounds like a winning plan to keep NHS budget in check and get the necessary staff.
On the subject of nurses my wife had a work friends reunion today at our house..............6 very senior nurses all recently retired within the last 3 yrs with over 220yrs of experience between them....every single one of them were very reluctant to leave the jobs (way of life) that they loved so much and yet now each and every one of them say they are so pleased, now that they have adapted, to have got out and were now able enjoy life without the burdens, pressures and stress they previously had.
While doing my catering duties I did pluck the courage to ask how did they think the nursing shortages could be resolved? Sorry to say no definitive solutions were really offered and they got back on with their gossiping PDQ.
While doing my catering duties I did pluck the courage to ask how did they think the nursing shortages could be resolved? Sorry to say no definitive solutions were really offered and they got back on with their gossiping PDQ.
jjlynn27 said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Glad it was entertainment to you, but does seem to suggest you're easily amused.
I'm, indeed, easily amused by simple creatures. Kippers and 'i'm not a kipper but I worship Farage' alike. I'm also easily amused by dimwits who blame EU for all the ills of this world and want to give more power to the same govt that actually failed to enforce available legislation. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff