Theresa May

[wc98]

EddieSteadyGo said:

This point is definitely wrong.

Honestly, I wonder sometimes why generally reasonable people lose perspective when the topic is Brexit.

Sure, Brexit is a major change, and it is important, but it isn't *that* important. And it doesn't trump everything else.

And for the record, if I were an MP, I'd be supporting May's deal.

It was always going to be messy leaving the EU. But there will be plenty of opportunity for future governments to improve the relationship with the EU over the long term. And with the passage of time, the EU will be a lot less sensitive and will become much more pragmatic about agreeing future arrangements which are in their best interest.

maybe not for you, but for others it is. it is certainly the most important thing to occur in this country since my birth in 1970, imo. it is the greatest constitutional issue for certain.for me it does trump everything else the government and civil service are tasked with running for the country.
i do appreciate there are plenty that dgaf either way, however,again imo, if the current proposal of a bucket of st with a mouldy cherry on top goes through we will be able to judge the importance people place on it by the size of the fires.

[B'stard Child]

psi310398 said:

OK, that's your point of view.

For my part, I think that there is absolutely no prospect of the divisions healing if May is allowed to get away with this and that what I see as a Carthaginian Peace is no basis on which to build any good relationship with the EU.

I also think that Brexit is risking respect for democracy and the sovereignty of our Parliament. Not only am I essentially being told my vote is worthless because it is not the right sort, but that for an enormously large part of Parliament's competence will not be under Uk control but communicated by e-mail to us as and when determined by Brussels.

If you genuinely do fear Corbyn and his mob, people like you need to persuade a lot of people like me (and I'm in a marginal Labour/Tory seat) what stake we have in your vision of society because, frankly, at the moment I'd be happy to see the Tory establishment out of power for the rest of my natural...

I'll be doing the same with the added bonus of watching an awful lot of people who have been pushing the labour "nirvana" on social media enjoy what a proper labour government would do.

So then I can rip the piss when it doesn't turn out to be so good and the rich that get taxed more are actually them

It will be a price worth paying

[psi310398]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Would you stop with this obsession about the last Tory manifesto. its clear you don't understand what a manifesto is and your dog-bark is getting boring now.

A manifesto is a statement of broad intent that inevitably and necessarily changes as the realities of the world dictate. It is not a set of binding commitments that must be delivered at all costs. CCO stated - unwisely in my view - that they would deliver a certain type of Brexit. Reality has shown that that isn't possible. Responsible Govt delivers the best solution that it can in those circumstances. That is what May has done

I'm sorry, but I don't think that you even believe this. This is not about some minor technical matter, but the long-term future of the country. May made solemn commitments. This was the central plank of her manifesto and she went out of her way (Lancaster House) to set out her policy. She is guilty of deceit and deserves to be chucked out.

If she genuinely came to the conclusion that she could not deliver on her promises, she should have come to Commons and said so, rather than secretly changing course and then trying to tell us all that she has delivered what she patently hasn't.

[anonymous-user]

EddieSteadyGo said:

This point is definitely wrong.

Honestly, I wonder sometimes why generally reasonable people lose perspective when the topic is Brexit.

Sure, Brexit is a major change, and it is important, but it isn't *that* important. And it doesn't trump everything else.

And for the record, if I were an MP, I'd be supporting May's deal.

It was always going to be messy leaving the EU. But there will be plenty of opportunity for future governments to improve the relationship with the EU over the long term. And with the passage of time, the EU will be a lot less sensitive and will become much more pragmatic about agreeing future arrangements which are in their best interest.

Nonsense i am afraid. The EU will not improve on this deal once it is signed. You have to be completely blind to their history to think that. This deal ties future governments hands forever. That is a long time.

[mx5nut]

jsf said:

Nonsense i am afraid. The EU will not improve on this deal once it is signed.

It's good that you've got a crystal ball and are able to say that for certain.

How about if we all get behind the deal and believe in Britain to make a success of it, instead of talking the deal down?

[psi310398]

B'stard Child said:

I'll be doing the same with the added bonus of watching an awful lot of people who have been pushing the labour "nirvana" on social media enjoy what a proper labour government would do.

So then I can rip the piss when it doesn't turn out to be so good and the rich that get taxed more are actually them

It will be a price worth paying

But I'm careful what I wish for: I'm in Hampstead surrounded by the worst kind of entitled, self-righteous, champagne socialist, virtue-signalling remainers (who have relied on Blair/ the Tories to allow them their lifestyles, while scolding their inferiors), so listening to how hard it is to keep the darling little Romanian cleaner on and how much prices have gone up in Waitrose, while doubtless highly amusing at first, will get old very fast...


.

[djohnson]

psi310398 said:

Anyway, if Corbyn wins an election fair and square, what's the problem? He can't do worse than Calamity May.

I firmly believe that, by far, the biggest threat to the UK economy and the wellbeing of everyone in the UK isn’t Brexit, rather it’s a Corbyn government. May and the Tories are inept and utterly chaotic in many ways and I don’t think she has a clue how to run a negotiation. However even May and her fractured party are a way better alternative than Corbyn. They aren’t the Labour Party, they are Marxists who have taken control of the Labour Party who are trying to hide some of the things they’ve done and said in the past that reveal their true beliefs and intentions. In short, pretending to more moderate than they really are. Their economic policies don’t add up by a long way (even the institute for fiscal studies said this at the last election) and these are the plans they’ve told us about not their real agenda. Their taxation and company ownership plans will cause business to desert the UK, their spending plans will push government debt and debt service costs to unsustainable levels, their resultant desperation for funds will push tax to confinscatory levels. Work and entrepreneurship will be disincentivised. Sterling will plummet, inflation and interest rates will rocket, growth and employment will decline steeply and we’ll face a crisis again as we did in 1976. If they do get a chance in office our children will still be paying for it well into their working lives and likely beyond.

All this is before I get to the bits I understand less we’ll, there is a strong weight of evidence that they’re linked with some pretty vile regimes and organisations and in short that they hold some strong anti-western views. They appear weak on security and terrorism. The shadow chancellor has advocated insurrection when democracy didn’t get him what he wanted and had advocated violence towards his opponents. I worry deeply about how a Corbyn regime would really regard our lifestyles, freedom of speech, property rights and democracy. Marxism and similar is weak in opposition but very hard to remove once in power.

Whilst for many they may need to do it with a lump in their throat, if the is an election in the near future, then if you really care about our economic and general well being, freedoms and lifestyle (and that includes the Many) then it had to be a Tory vote. The alternative is economic suicide with a deeply worrying regime as an added incentive.

[EddieSteadyGo]

jsf said:

Nonsense i am afraid. The EU will not improve on this deal once it is signed. You have to be completely blind to their history to think that. This deal ties future governments hands forever. That is a long time.

I'm not blind. There are many examples where deals change over time, if the timeline is measured in years and decades not weeks or months.

Maybe we can agree that the EU are being bloody awkward. They have exaggerated the NI border point. They want above all else to not encourage other countries to leave. And they will 'cut their nose off to spite their face' as their political objectives are more important currently than their economic ones. That was always going to be the case,

And remember all of the arguments that because "they sell more to us then we sell to them", BMW etc would all apply leverage to ensure a good deal. It hasn't happened and won't happen, for the reason above.

So the choice is either leaving with no deal. Or one like May's, which contains many elements where we have to hold our nose, but does mean exiting the EU, the end of free movement and a few other points.

And for those who want to roll the dice and leave with no-deal, you don't have the numbers, either in parliament or in the public. So you will just cause most likely another general election, and quite possibly after that a second referendum. Which you might not win, which means no brexit after all.

[zb]

Let me state quite unequivocally I am not a Conservative, I have never voted Conservative, I cannot ever see myself voting Conservative, my politics would be centre/socialist.

Right now Theresa May is the best of a very, very rum lot.

I don't see any serious alternatives. Reese-Mogg is a jumped up prefect, quite content to blow raspberries from the sidelines, there is nothing "leadership" about him, he has no vision other than what would best suit whatever hedge fund he has his money in. Boris Johnston is the highest educated idiot I've ever know, he was blind sided and stabbed in the back by Michael Gove, read that last bit again, slowly, and consider it.

Therefore, I should favour Corbyn, if my politics are Socialist leaning? Corbyn doesn't have a thought in his head, he use to be indecisive, now he's not so sure. One of the barometers when I consider a Prime Minister's suitability is how happy would I be with them sitting down with Putin. Putin would give Corbyn a wedgy (I'll leave parallels with red Foot and Russian agents for another day).

Sadly, all the heavyweights of the New Labour era are gone, and to a large extent this is true of Tories, Ken Clarke's day has past too.

This is what were are left with.

As ever, this internecine warfare over Europe threatens to tear Tories and the country apart.

I have absolutely no idea if this "deal" is good, bad or indifferent. I'll wager 99% of the population doesn't either. Sure I've read as much as I can, however, until it (if) is actually implemented no-one knows the economic outcome, despite what they may claim .

This has been foisted on us by a lot of scared people and cynical opportunist, harking back to days of Empire that'll never return, no matter how much the pine. The world has changed.

As you may have gathered, I voted remain. Not through any idealist vision of a united Europe, I was content with the status quo, as I did not see any advantage in leaving, and saw through the patent lies of the leave crew. Yet I didn't think we got a particularly good deal from Europe.

Now that we have voted to leave, we need to leave, for good or ill. No second votes, an about turn now would put us in an even weaker position, like a batter wife going back into an abusive relationship, it is not better for us to stick together for the sake of the kids.

Back to the original point: Theresa May has earned my grudging respect, lesser mortals would have chucked it after the conference fiasco last year. She's like the bloody terminator, and I'm thoroughly sick of the absolute ste and chaos these brexit s have foisted on us. If they oust May, I hope this is also the end of the Tories as a cohesive unit. As John Major so eloquently put it; bds

[ClaphamGT3]

psi310398 said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Would you stop with this obsession about the last Tory manifesto. its clear you don't understand what a manifesto is and your dog-bark is getting boring now.

A manifesto is a statement of broad intent that inevitably and necessarily changes as the realities of the world dictate. It is not a set of binding commitments that must be delivered at all costs. CCO stated - unwisely in my view - that they would deliver a certain type of Brexit. Reality has shown that that isn't possible. Responsible Govt delivers the best solution that it can in those circumstances. That is what May has done

I'm sorry, but I don't think that you even believe this. This is not about some minor technical matter, but the long-term future of the country. May made solemn commitments. This was the central plank of her manifesto and she went out of her way (Lancaster House) to set out her policy. She is guilty of deceit and deserves to be chucked out.

If she genuinely came to the conclusion that she could not deliver on her promises, she should have come to Commons and said so, rather than secretly changing course and then trying to tell us all that she has delivered what she patently hasn't.

It's not a question of what I believe; it's a question of what I know. This is how politics work and have worked in this country at least since 1911. If the electorate believe a deviation from a manifesto commitment is sufficiently significant then they are, of course, welcome to vote the party in question out of office at the next election.

All politicians, of all parties, adapt to the realities of the situations that they face; I am no fan of May but that is what she has done. Anyone with the wit and the will to analyse her political track record would always have known that she was only ever going to do that. Oh, and don't get hung up on the Lancaster House speech - it was just that; a speech; not a policy statement, not a manifesto commitment - just a speech.

under the circumstances, I think that she and her team have got a pretty good deal; not ideal and certainly a whole lot worse than remaining but certainly workable for the UK economy. I suspect that she will get it through parliament and that it will form the basis of a reasonably sensible on-going relationship with the EU which (a) largely protects our economy and (b) leaves the door open for a relatively painless re-entry once the 37% have come to their senses

[psi310398]

djohnson said:

I firmly believe that, by far, the biggest threat to the UK economy and the wellbeing of everyone in the UK isn’t Brexit, rather it’s a Corbyn May government. May Corbyn and the Tories are inept and utterly chaotic in many ways and I don’t think she has a clue how to run a negotiation. However even May Corbyn and her his fractured party are a way better alternative than Corbyn May. They aren’t the Labour Conservative Party, they are Marxists ambitious Lib-Dems who have taken control of the Labour Conservative Party who are trying to hide some of the things they’ve done and said in the past that reveal their true beliefs and intentions. In short, pretending to more moderate conservative than they really are. Their economic policies don’t add up by a long way (even the institute for fiscal studies said this at the last election) and these are the plans they’ve told us about not their real agenda. Their taxation and company ownership plans will cause business to desert the UK, their spending plans will push government debt and debt service costs to unsustainable levels, their resultant desperation for funds will push tax to confiscatory levels. Work and entrepreneurship will be disincentivised. Sterling will plummet, inflation and interest rates will rocket, growth and employment will decline steeply and we’ll face a crisis again as we did in 1976. If they do get a chance in office our children will still be paying for it well into their working lives and likely beyond.

All this is before I get to the bits I understand less we’ll, there is a strong weight of evidence that they’re linked with some pretty vile regimes and organisations and in short that they hold some strong anti-westerndemocratic views. They appear weak on security and terrorism preferring to sidle up to EU Army plans rather than publicly defending NATO. The shadow chancellor has advocated insurrection undermined a referendum when democracy didn’t get him what he wanted and had advocated violence towards his opponentsrefused to act in his country's interests by funding credible preparations to allow negotiators to persuade the EU that we had an alternative to their demands. I worry deeply about how a Corbyn May regime would really regard our lifestyles, freedom of speech, property rights and democracy. Marxism May-type "Conservatism" and similar is weak in opposition and very weak but very hard to remove once in power.

Whilst for many they may need to do it with a lump in their throat, if the is an election in the near future, then if you really care about our economic and general well being, freedoms and lifestyle (and that includes the Many) then it had to be a Tory vote. The alternative is economic suicide with a deeply worrying regime as an added incentive.

I am sure that you are sincere and fully respect your beliefs and your right to hold them.

But you do realise that, if you are being fair-minded, if you substituted the word Tory for Labour about 90% of what you wrote would apply to them? For illustration, I have taken the liberty with your text above (please forgive me). Just a bit of playfulness.

[B'stard Child]

psi310398 said:

B'stard Child said:

I'll be doing the same with the added bonus of watching an awful lot of people who have been pushing the labour "nirvana" on social media enjoy what a proper labour government would do.

So then I can rip the piss when it doesn't turn out to be so good and the rich that get taxed more are actually them

It will be a price worth paying

But I'm careful what I wish for: I'm in Hampstead surrounded by the worst kind of entitled, self-righteous, champagne socialist, virtue-signalling remainers (who have relied on Blair/ the Tories to allow them their lifestyles, while scolding their inferiors), so listening to how hard it is to keep the darling little Romanian cleaner on and how much prices have gone up in Waitrose, while doubtless highly amusing at first, will get old very fast...


.

You would have way more fun than me - if it happens tell them to own it as they voted for it

[anonymous-user]

Interesting Proples Vote stand in the PMs own constituency High Street today. Inviting passers-by to indicate their preferences on a chart. I’d say 75% of the responses were anti Brexit & pro Proples Vote. Much like the PM deep down I reckon..
The way things are going, Mrs May will struggle to be an MP, let alone PM

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 17th November 20:18

[djohnson]

psi310398 said:

djohnson said:

I firmly believe that, by far, the biggest threat to the UK economy and the wellbeing of everyone in the UK isn’t Brexit, rather it’s a Corbyn May government. May Corbyn and the Tories are inept and utterly chaotic in many ways and I don’t think she has a clue how to run a negotiation. However even May Corbyn and her his fractured party are a way better alternative than Corbyn May. They aren’t the Labour Conservative Party, they are Marxists ambitious Lib-Dems who have taken control of the Labour Conservative Party who are trying to hide some of the things they’ve done and said in the past that reveal their true beliefs and intentions. In short, pretending to more moderate conservative than they really are. Their economic policies don’t add up by a long way (even the institute for fiscal studies said this at the last election) and these are the plans they’ve told us about not their real agenda. Their taxation and company ownership plans will cause business to desert the UK, their spending plans will push government debt and debt service costs to unsustainable levels, their resultant desperation for funds will push tax to confiscatory levels. Work and entrepreneurship will be disincentivised. Sterling will plummet, inflation and interest rates will rocket, growth and employment will decline steeply and we’ll face a crisis again as we did in 1976. If they do get a chance in office our children will still be paying for it well into their working lives and likely beyond.

All this is before I get to the bits I understand less we’ll, there is a strong weight of evidence that they’re linked with some pretty vile regimes and organisations and in short that they hold some strong anti-westerndemocratic views. They appear weak on security and terrorism preferring to sidle up to EU Army plans rather than publicly defending NATO. The shadow chancellor has advocated insurrection undermined a referendum when democracy didn’t get him what he wanted and had advocated violence towards his opponentsrefused to act in his country's interests by funding credible preparations to allow negotiators to persuade the EU that we had an alternative to their demands. I worry deeply about how a Corbyn May regime would really regard our lifestyles, freedom of speech, property rights and democracy. Marxism May-type "Conservatism" and similar is weak in opposition and very weak but very hard to remove once in power.

Whilst for many they may need to do it with a lump in their throat, if the is an election in the near future, then if you really care about our economic and general well being, freedoms and lifestyle (and that includes the Many) then it had to be a Tory vote. The alternative is economic suicide with a deeply worrying regime as an added incentive.

I am sure that you are sincere and fully respect your beliefs and your right to hold them.

But you do realise that, if you are being fair-minded, if you substituted the word Tory for Labour about 90% of what you wrote would apply to them? For illustration, I have taken the liberty with your text above (please forgive me). Just a bit of playfulness.

Well interesting. In all honesty whilst some of what you say above is probably right (and made me smile) but there is no way the Tory party are as extreme as the current Labour front bench and hence your annends aren’t comparable to the point I’m making. Corby has been paid to appear on Iranian TV (the mouthpiece of the regime), he lunched with Sinn Fein shortly after the Brighton bombing, he has described Hamas and Hezbollah as ‘friends’, I could go on and also I could comment similarly on McDonnell. Their economic policies would represent some of the most extreme we’ve had in the UK ever and would have some of the most extreme outcomes we’ve ever seen as I set out above, this is always the outcome of socialism, put simply its flawed.

The real point I’m making is that this is not the pretty central thinking Labour Party we’ve all been used to in recent years. It’s been taken over by extreme Marxists. I worry that many don’t see this and will vote Labour out of loyalty to that party and without recognising who is now in charge. If they’d started a new neo-Marxist party with these policies they’d attract virtually no votes, however this way they’re close to power.

I appreciate the discussion and clearly you have a different view. I hope you will consider my points above anyway (and btw I don’t think we’re having an election anyway).

Dave

[psi310398]

djohnson said:

Well interesting. In all honesty whilst some of what you say above is probably right (and made me smile) but there is no way the Tory party are as extreme as the current Labour front bench and hence your annends aren’t comparable to the point I’m making. Corby has been paid to appear on Iranian TV (the mouthpiece of the regime), he lunched with Sinn Fein shortly after the Brighton bombing, he has described Hamas and Hezbollah as ‘friends’, I could go on and also I could comment similarly on McDonnell. Their economic policies would represent some of the most extreme we’ve had in the UK ever and would have some of the most extreme outcomes we’ve ever seen as I set out above, this is always the outcome of socialism, put simply its flawed.

The real point I’m making is that this is not the pretty central thinking Labour Party we’ve all been used to in recent years. It’s been taken over by extreme Marxists. I worry that many don’t see this and will vote Labour out of loyalty to that party and without recognising who is now in charge. If they’d started a new neo-Marxist party with these policies they’d attract virtually no votes, however this way they’re close to power.

I appreciate the discussion and clearly you have a different view. I hope you will consider my points above anyway (and btw I don’t think we’re having an election anyway).

Dave

Dave

Thank you for taking my leg-pulling in good humour.

I too think Corbyn and co are odious sts. It's just that they sadly do not hold a monopoly and I'm afraid the Tories have no real claim to economic competence or any other sort any more to offset some of their rather more repugnant sides. And simply occupying power to exercise it with no lodestar isn't good enough if you can't manage competently.

I think the effect Corbyn will have will be very limited, simply because his backbench will behave in exactly the same way as the Tories once faced with the realities and responsibilities of power.

Still, thanks to the behaviour of the Government and some Conservative Remainers, this is likely to be what is gifted to us.

Best

Peter

[djohnson]

psi310398 said:

djohnson said:

Well interesting. In all honesty whilst some of what you say above is probably right (and made me smile) but there is no way the Tory party are as extreme as the current Labour front bench and hence your annends aren’t comparable to the point I’m making. Corby has been paid to appear on Iranian TV (the mouthpiece of the regime), he lunched with Sinn Fein shortly after the Brighton bombing, he has described Hamas and Hezbollah as ‘friends’, I could go on and also I could comment similarly on McDonnell. Their economic policies would represent some of the most extreme we’ve had in the UK ever and would have some of the most extreme outcomes we’ve ever seen as I set out above, this is always the outcome of socialism, put simply its flawed.

The real point I’m making is that this is not the pretty central thinking Labour Party we’ve all been used to in recent years. It’s been taken over by extreme Marxists. I worry that many don’t see this and will vote Labour out of loyalty to that party and without recognising who is now in charge. If they’d started a new neo-Marxist party with these policies they’d attract virtually no votes, however this way they’re close to power.

I appreciate the discussion and clearly you have a different view. I hope you will consider my points above anyway (and btw I don’t think we’re having an election anyway).

Dave

Dave

Thank you for taking my leg-pulling in good humour.

I think the effect Corbyn will have will be very limited, simply because his backbench will behave in exactly the same way as the Tories once faced with the realities and responsibilities of power.



Best

Peter

No worries, good to discuss with you. Whilst I firmly believe that current Labour policy, if implemented and allowed to continue, would have a devestating impact on the economy compared to current performance, I think you have a point here re how long their extreme policies might last when faced with the realities of power. There’s some precedent for this argument, look at Mitterrand in the 80s, his left wing approach didn’t last long when the true realities of power and the economy became evident to him. Dave

[CAPP0]

ash73 said:

Although I think she means well I don't think she's intelligent enough to come up with anything more imaginative

For me the principle issue is that she completely and utterly lacks any semblance of having leadership skills or qualities whatsoever. My only qualification for commenting on that is having successfully completed a year-long leadership programme (in business, not politics) about five years ago but from what I can see she has nothing in this respect.

[zb]

CAPP0 said:

ash73 said:

Although I think she means well I don't think she's intelligent enough to come up with anything more imaginative

For me the principle issue is that she completely and utterly lacks any semblance of having leadership skills or qualities whatsoever. My only qualification for commenting on that is having successfully completed a year-long leadership programme (in business, not politics) about five years ago but from what I can see she has nothing in this respect.

I really can't believe I'm defending Theresa May on this thread.

She has stood up to be counted, and she has not vacillated. As many surgeons will tell you "I might be wrong, but I'm never in doubt". To me that's the essence of leadership; making a decision, and not fearing consequences. (right or wrong)

[psi310398]

CAPP0 said:

For me the principle issue is that she completely and utterly lacks any semblance of having leadership skills or qualities whatsoever. My only qualification for commenting on that is having successfully completed a year-long leadership programme (in business, not politics) about five years ago but from what I can see she has nothing in this respect.

Basic honesty and straightforwardness might be a couple of fairly essential attributes to consider, too.

[anonymous-user]

zb said:

I really can't believe I'm defending Theresa May on this thread.

She has stood up to be counted, and she has not vacillated. As many surgeons will tell you "I might be wrong, but I'm never in doubt". To me that's the essence of leadership; making a decision, and not fearing consequences. (right or wrong)

She hasn't stood up. She lay down and took a flogging when it counted,

The moment she did her chequers betrayal she should have been removed, but the tories thought they could argue some sense into this "bloody difficult woman". They were wrong and look what we have now.