Discussion
Sway said:
Nickgnome said:
And there in lies the rub. That is why we have a parliamentary democracy. Our MPs should never have abdicated their responsibility to the populous who can’t make rational unprejudiced decisions.
They do already, in order to put them in the position where they can make rational and unprejudiced decisions... Sorry. Almost had me there.
Every single main party has had promises for referendums relating to the EU within their manifestos.
Typically, they were "in the event of a new Treaty" type promises - which the electorate saw through as not representing their interests, hence the rise of UKIP.
Since then, the vast majority of those rational, unprejudiced, MPs have voted at every single opportunity in a way to support the electorate's will to have a vote and to see that vote seen through.
I’ll clarify. There should never be referenda.
I have been dismayed on the number of MPs, save for a few, who did not stick by their beliefs or were principled enough to accept the consequences of said position.
davepoth said:
saaby93 said:
It may not be obligated but there could be all sorts of transfer of goods to avoid different tax regimes
Meanwhile the EU border post would be just the other side
Removing the barrier doesn't stop the tax being collected; interestingly, some of the UK's no deal preparation includes periodic accounting of import VAT anyway, which goes a long way to removing hold-ups at a border.Meanwhile the EU border post would be just the other side
As to the border post on the EU's side, that's their problem. However, I recall they've said they are going to uphold the Good Friday Agreement which would stop them from putting in a border post, so they'd be in a tricky spot...
would the DUP prefer that?
Nickgnome said:
You seem to have misunderstood my statement completely.
I’ll clarify. There should never be referenda.
I have been dismayed on the number of MPs, save for a few, who did not stick by their beliefs or were principled enough to accept the consequences of said position.
I can understand, and indeed empathise, with that position. We elect representatives, let them represent. I’ll clarify. There should never be referenda.
I have been dismayed on the number of MPs, save for a few, who did not stick by their beliefs or were principled enough to accept the consequences of said position.
However, on the EU, the setup doesn't permit democratic engagement - Treaties are never known properly during a GE campaign, parties can easily duck any questions regarding their specific intent towards our relationship with the EU. MEPs form Groups - which don't publish manifestos available to the electorate at the time of any euro election...
So we end up in a situation where the majority feel their representatives aren't accurately representing their wishes. Indeed, there isn't even viable mechanism for the representatives to determine their electorate's wishes.
So in that instance, I feel referendums are fine.
Personally, I think the Swiss model has a lot going for it. Batches of 'mini-referendums' determining specific points of legislature. Makes for a very engaged electorate, and depolarises the debate too.
saaby93 said:
yes they did offer that but it involved having the customs border down the Irish Sea
would the DUP prefer that?
Not quite. What we're talking about here is unilaterally opening the border on the UK side, and then pointing out that if the EU wants to uphold the GFA they can't put a hard border in. It has nothing to do with any of the previous discussions, and would work in a no deal scenario, so there would be no change to the Irish Sea.would the DUP prefer that?
davepoth said:
saaby93 said:
yes they did offer that but it involved having the customs border down the Irish Sea
would the DUP prefer that?
Not quite. What we're talking about here is unilaterally opening the border on the UK side, and then pointing out that if the EU wants to uphold the GFA they can't put a hard border in. It has nothing to do with any of the previous discussions, and would work in a no deal scenario, so there would be no change to the Irish Sea.would the DUP prefer that?
Why else do you think theyve gone to all the trouble to come up with this draft agreement
Nickgnome said:
Your profile states you are a race car engineer. Is it your team? Are you therefore looking to see how future or existing contracts may need to be amended, staff being able to travel and reside completely unemcumbered. How you fund exchange rate issues. Etc etc. Hopefully you will not be disrupted but someone in your organisation should be taking some cognisance off potential impacts.
I doubt she is as thick as you think. Certainly way less than those that say let’s just get on with it. In fact a couple of CS contacts state she’s a nasty piece of work but quite smart.
I already work all over the world. A lot of my fellow engineers are currently in Japan. We tend to race UK, mainland Europe, USA, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Canada. The most difficult event we went to was Baku, which involved someone going to London for the day, the paperwork usually gets done en mass under agreement's the F1 teams use.I doubt she is as thick as you think. Certainly way less than those that say let’s just get on with it. In fact a couple of CS contacts state she’s a nasty piece of work but quite smart.
Brexit has made us much cheaper as most of our clients live outside the UK. Not that money is a problem for them, what i work with is very expensive, most expensive car i have engineered would cost you $70 million.
If the EU want to lose our money and destroy their sporting events, we will go somewhere else. The world is a big, mostly open to trade place.
One thing I dont understand is why the levels of vitriol and why do the most vitriolic comments seem to come from those purporting to speak on behalf of others? I freely admit I made my decision in the Referendum based entirely on self-interest. I regard it as simple common sense that it would be bonkers for me to vote presuming on what is best for others.
saaby93 said:
If theres no border in the Irish Sea and no agreement about trade, theres a hard border one side or the other between the north and south.
Why else do you think theyve gone to all the trouble to come up with this draft agreement
They've gone to all of this trouble because the EU wanted to make it as hard as possible. The technology exists to ensure there is no physical infrastructure at the border between NI and the RoI but the EU didn't want to consider it because that would have made things too easy for us and (more importantly) anyone else who felt like leaving. Why else do you think theyve gone to all the trouble to come up with this draft agreement
davepoth said:
saaby93 said:
If theres no border in the Irish Sea and no agreement about trade, theres a hard border one side or the other between the north and south.
Why else do you think theyve gone to all the trouble to come up with this draft agreement
They've gone to all of this trouble because the EU wanted to make it as hard as possible. The technology exists to ensure there is no physical infrastructure at the border between NI and the RoI but the EU didn't want to consider it because that would have made things too easy for us and (more importantly) anyone else who felt like leaving. Why else do you think theyve gone to all the trouble to come up with this draft agreement
No the EU is mindful of the conflicting criteria, No border across Ireland, no border in Irish sea and have helped UK come up with an agreement.
Its not workable otherwise, or at least not without those borders
Anyway its not too bad a deal. It takes UK out of EU so ticks the referendum box
while immediately bringing in a trade agreement to satisfy business
Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 20th November 00:53
?
The DUP have acted in their rational self interest. They have been entirely consistent in their behaviour. By common sense and rational logic, the DUP are the only ones from this whole mess who you could argue are the ones you would trust!
Whether you like that behaviour is irrelevant! Neither the British govt nor the EU however, have acted in their logical self interest. This is just one aspect of the whole lunacy of where we are!
The DUP have acted in their rational self interest. They have been entirely consistent in their behaviour. By common sense and rational logic, the DUP are the only ones from this whole mess who you could argue are the ones you would trust!
Whether you like that behaviour is irrelevant! Neither the British govt nor the EU however, have acted in their logical self interest. This is just one aspect of the whole lunacy of where we are!
DeejRC said:
?
The DUP have acted in their rational self interest. They have been entirely consistent in their behaviour. By common sense and rational logic, the DUP are the only ones from this whole mess who you could argue are the ones you would trust!
Whether you like that behaviour is irrelevant! Neither the British govt nor the EU however, have acted in their logical self interest. This is just one aspect of the whole lunacy of where we are!
Rubbish, the Finance Bill has nothing to do with brexit.The DUP have acted in their rational self interest. They have been entirely consistent in their behaviour. By common sense and rational logic, the DUP are the only ones from this whole mess who you could argue are the ones you would trust!
Whether you like that behaviour is irrelevant! Neither the British govt nor the EU however, have acted in their logical self interest. This is just one aspect of the whole lunacy of where we are!
davepoth said:
saaby93 said:
If theres no border in the Irish Sea and no agreement about trade, theres a hard border one side or the other between the north and south.
Why else do you think theyve gone to all the trouble to come up with this draft agreement
They've gone to all of this trouble because the EU wanted to make it as hard as possible. The technology exists to ensure there is no physical infrastructure at the border between NI and the RoI but the EU didn't want to consider it because that would have made things too easy for us and (more importantly) anyone else who felt like leaving. Why else do you think theyve gone to all the trouble to come up with this draft agreement
Therefore we won’t have Brexited
If we don’t want a border, why not have the same at Dover? Come & go as you please. No difference
The EU haven’t made it difficult at all. Entirely consistent from day one. It’s entiteky a problem of our (Tories) doing
There is no satisfactory answer
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 20th November 06:33
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