White Flight and failing Integration

[del mar]

Earthdweller.

What policies could the government put in place to make you and your family (I assume you have a partner and children) move back to the area where you grew up, where the woman are a "sea of black" ?

It is a genuine question.

Giving you millions is not a viable policy.

The other side of the coin is that we encourage these people to move into the white suburbs where we have all moved to, all this would do is end up with the suburbs looking the same, so that wont work.

[Alpinestars]

del mar said:

Alpinestars said:

It was irrelevant to the example Countdown gave. Integration, by definition, requires both sides to integrate, ie, the indigenous population to allow others in, and vice versa. Any estate where people of a different background are not allowed in, creates segregation.

I am on the verge of agreeing with you here !

It is indeed a two way street, both sides have to want to work together.

But that only works if the indigenous population wants the immigrants in the first place. If I was asked do I want large scale immigration and I said yes, then it is up to me to make it work. If on the other hand I don't want this, then I wont play my part and am more likely to move.

If there was vote in Germany asking the population if they wanted 1 million mainly male muslims from war zones to come to Germany and the people said yes, that is fine.

There wasn't a vote lots of people didn't want them, but they are then forced onto them in smaller towns and cities, it is unfair to expect these people to go out of their way to assist in the integration. Suddenly there is no chance of the two way street idea working.

So much to dissect there.

It's up to the indigenous population? Who is indigenous in your view? The offspring of black and Asians, from largely colonial countries that we ruled over, that were invited here many years ago to fill labour roles that the "indigenous" people didn't want to do?

How many generations make you indigenous?

As far as other counties go, why do you have a view on who should be let in when you're not indigenous to those countries?

[andymc]

Earthdweller said:

I watched the revisit of this issue with interest being a Blackburn lad born and bred

My mother was born in and grew up in a now demolished terraced house off Whalley Range .. they built a school on it since

I went to the local primary school in the area, which in the early seventies was mixed about 70/30 white/Asian

The town was poor and pretty grubby with very high unemployment but I never noticed any issues growing up ... as a teenager in the 80’s I loved the vibrant nightlife

It wasn’t a bad place to live

Fast forward to today and the place is pretty soulless

Would I say it’s more divided .. yes I would

As I grew up the Asian girls were in bright coloured sari’s or western clothes and I struggle to remember any with covered faces, head scarves yes

Now it’s a sea of black and totally covered girls/women some from as young as 4 or 5

As I say I went to a mixed school . Now the kids don’t .. My sons school is virtually all white unlike when I went to school

There are Muslim schools for boys and Muslim schools for girls .. so not just the races but also sexes are divided

My mother, now in her 80’s and widowed still lives on the northern edge of the town in an area which is becoming increasingly Asian

The small semi’s and bungalows in her area are being bought up and converted into much larger properties .. two bed bungalows being converted into 6 bed houses and the gardens abandoned or converted into hard standing

The area is becoming very shabby very rapidly .. and it’s heartbreaking for my mother who has lived in her house since it was built 40 years ago

Her Asian neighbours are lovely and very family orientated and really keep an eye on her .. particularly the older ones.. pretty much all the white residents are elderly or older folk

Every house that is sold is bought by Asians .. I couldn’t imagine any white folks buying a house where she lives

The young Asians can be quite arrogant and intimidating however

So, in my opinion is the town more divided than it was 10 years ago ... absolutely it is

Is there “white flight” ..

absolutely there is, virtually everyone I went to school with and who lived in Blackburn now lives out of the town ..,look at the development of Whalley and Clitheroe which is where they have all gone

Can it be stopped or reversed ?

I’m not sure but ending the segregated education system would be a great start

Do I see racial tensions ..., no I don’t and generally everyone seems to get along and the town centre is used by all

But crucially the lifestyles are radically different and those white folks who can afford to are leaving or already have left in droves to one of the many satellite areas that are thriving

What is the future for Blackburn .. I think it will become over time increasingly Asian ethnically and in look and feel

For far too long local and national government had turned a blind eye to the massive changes and issues in places like Blackburn

so why do Westernised Pakistani males feel the need to subjugate the women

[Boosted LS1]

Alpinestars said:

del mar said:

Alpinestars said:

It was irrelevant to the example Countdown gave. Integration, by definition, requires both sides to integrate, ie, the indigenous population to allow others in, and vice versa. Any estate where people of a different background are not allowed in, creates segregation.

I am on the verge of agreeing with you here !

It is indeed a two way street, both sides have to want to work together.

But that only works if the indigenous population wants the immigrants in the first place. If I was asked do I want large scale immigration and I said yes, then it is up to me to make it work. If on the other hand I don't want this, then I wont play my part and am more likely to move.

If there was vote in Germany asking the population if they wanted 1 million mainly male muslims from war zones to come to Germany and the people said yes, that is fine.

There wasn't a vote lots of people didn't want them, but they are then forced onto them in smaller towns and cities, it is unfair to expect these people to go out of their way to assist in the integration. Suddenly there is no chance of the two way street idea working.

So much to dissect there.

It's up to the indigenous population? Who is indigenous in your view? The offspring of black and Asians, from largely colonial countries that we ruled over, that were invited here many years ago to fill labour roles that the "indigenous" people didn't want to do?

How many generations make you indigenous?

As far as other counties go, why do you have a view on who should be let in when you're not indigenous to those countries?

Surely it's simpler then that. Just let the resident population have a vote. Except they didn't get one.

[Boosted LS1]

andymc said:

Earthdweller said:

I watched the revisit of this issue with interest being a Blackburn lad born and bred

My mother was born in and grew up in a now demolished terraced house off Whalley Range .. they built a school on it since

I went to the local primary school in the area, which in the early seventies was mixed about 70/30 white/Asian

The town was poor and pretty grubby with very high unemployment but I never noticed any issues growing up ... as a teenager in the 80’s I loved the vibrant nightlife

It wasn’t a bad place to live

Fast forward to today and the place is pretty soulless

Would I say it’s more divided .. yes I would

As I grew up the Asian girls were in bright coloured sari’s or western clothes and I struggle to remember any with covered faces, head scarves yes

Now it’s a sea of black and totally covered girls/women some from as young as 4 or 5

As I say I went to a mixed school . Now the kids don’t .. My sons school is virtually all white unlike when I went to school

There are Muslim schools for boys and Muslim schools for girls .. so not just the races but also sexes are divided

My mother, now in her 80’s and widowed still lives on the northern edge of the town in an area which is becoming increasingly Asian

The small semi’s and bungalows in her area are being bought up and converted into much larger properties .. two bed bungalows being converted into 6 bed houses and the gardens abandoned or converted into hard standing

The area is becoming very shabby very rapidly .. and it’s heartbreaking for my mother who has lived in her house since it was built 40 years ago

Her Asian neighbours are lovely and very family orientated and really keep an eye on her .. particularly the older ones.. pretty much all the white residents are elderly or older folk

Every house that is sold is bought by Asians .. I couldn’t imagine any white folks buying a house where she lives

The young Asians can be quite arrogant and intimidating however

So, in my opinion is the town more divided than it was 10 years ago ... absolutely it is

Is there “white flight” ..

absolutely there is, virtually everyone I went to school with and who lived in Blackburn now lives out of the town ..,look at the development of Whalley and Clitheroe which is where they have all gone

Can it be stopped or reversed ?

I’m not sure but ending the segregated education system would be a great start

Do I see racial tensions ..., no I don’t and generally everyone seems to get along and the town centre is used by all

But crucially the lifestyles are radically different and those white folks who can afford to are leaving or already have left in droves to one of the many satellite areas that are thriving

What is the future for Blackburn .. I think it will become over time increasingly Asian ethnically and in look and feel

For far too long local and national government had turned a blind eye to the massive changes and issues in places like Blackburn

so why do Westernised Pakistani males feel the need to subjugate the women

Well that's simple. Some believe in their 'not so good book' and implement it. Maybe they have low esteem or haven't achieved much? Either way, they're in the wrong as far as a modern society is concerned.

[rallycross]

andymc said:

so why do Westernised Pakistani males feel the need to subjugate the women

It would be nice to get an honest answer on this, can't fix the problem till people are prepared to admit the truth.

[Earthdweller]

del mar said:

Earthdweller.

What policies could the government put in place to make you and your family (I assume you have a partner and children) move back to the area where you grew up, where the woman are a "sea of black" ?

It is a genuine question.

Giving you millions is not a viable policy.

The other side of the coin is that we encourage these people to move into the white suburbs where we have all moved to, all this would do is end up with the suburbs looking the same, so that wont work.


It is actually a very good question and as a second generation immigrant married to a foreigner one I’ve pondered often

Immigration for many many years was steady and at a level where the newcomers could integrate ... had to integrate, also I suppose previous waves of immigrants were culturally not too dissimilar to the hosts

I think it all happened to fast and in too great a number for people to accept the change

When the Jews the Polish and the Irish ( me) came there was a shared religion or at the least a shared view of the world and people assimilated far easier

I think that where places like Blackburn suffered as opposed to London is that it is neither an all indigenous population nor a cultural and religious melting pot ( I lived in East London for 18 years)

The mass immigration that occurred ( very quickly) all came from the same area of Pakistan, from the same villages and the same family groups and they all grouped together as you’d expect .. the knock on effect has been the Ghettoisation of the area with very little incentive for the incoming community to integrate and a feeling in the indegenous population that they are being overrun

I’m not altogether sure how that can be addressed at this stage and we have been left with an indigenous population and one other very different large group

We are looking at a failing in govt policy in this area for the last 40 years which has led us to a place that it may not be possible to return from

I do feel that secular education would benefit the area massively and the removal of all faith schools both Christian and Muslim would be a massive step forward ( I say this as a practising Catholic)


As for me moving back to my home town ?

I can’t really see any incentive the place is a dump and not a desirable place to live and that’s not due to the immigration but the end of the industrial era and years and years of chronic neglect and underfunding not helped by the abundance of very lovely places and affordable places around it to live in ( equally it can be said for many similar northern towns)

Do I see the gentrification of it like happened to my old East End haunts .. no I don’t

Sadly I think it will continue to decline and as we are already seeing the wealthier Asian population will spread out and leave to the “flight” areas

I fear it could go the way of many American towns and cities

Are the govt going to invest in the town ..

encourage high paid jobs into the area and high earners into to town .. not a chance in my mind

I think in time it will be left with those from both communities that have neither the will nor ability to leave left behind and the others will get out

Time will tell but I do fear for the future of a once great town .. at least the Rovers seem to be on the up

[Boosted LS1]

rallycross said:

andymc said:

so why do Westernised Pakistani males feel the need to subjugate the women

It would be nice to get an honest answer on this, can't fix the problem till people are prepared to admit the truth.

It'll take a few more court cases before people discuss it freely and when it's so obvious the deniers can no longer deny it.

[Earthdweller]

Boosted LS1 said:

rallycross said:

andymc said:

so why do Westernised Pakistani males feel the need to subjugate the women

It would be nice to get an honest answer on this, can't fix the problem till people are prepared to admit the truth.

It'll take a few more court cases before people discuss it freely and when it's so obvious the deniers can no longer deny it.

When I grew up in Blackburn and lived there as a young man it was very unusual to see veiled women and never veiled children

Now it is the norm

The mantra of multiculturalism has failed

There are third generation immigrants in the town that do not speak English and as the Muslim policeman in Blackburn said there is too much going on in the madrassas and mosques which he said was divisive and unhelpful

We are now in a position where young Muslim children are being excluded from the wider community and mainstream education, being schooled in religious schools that are outside the normal curriculum and then spending hours at night studying the Koran in madrassas with boys and girls being kept apart

To a point where they do not know the world outside their own bubble

It does not bode well for the future at all

[ATG]

amusingduck said:

crankedup said:

What exactly is integration, I mean if/when a town has become integrated how is that identified as such?

Good question.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Absence of segregation is probably a good starting point?

It is an excellent question, particularly when you consider that the white British population itself isn't particularly integrated to start with. We are still hugely divided by region and class.

I think we often think integration means adopting the same attitudes and asperations, but that's to set the bar far higher than we do for the "indigenous" population.

Integration has really occurred when people are simply not surprised to see each other on the street, not troubled by each others presence in the same community. That doesn't take cultural assimilation. It just takes time so that seeing the differences is perfectly normal and not threatening.

[Alpinestars]

ATG said:

amusingduck said:

crankedup said:

What exactly is integration, I mean if/when a town has become integrated how is that identified as such?

Good question.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Absence of segregation is probably a good starting point?

It is an excellent question, particularly when you consider that the white British population itself isn't particularly integrated to start with. We are still hugely divided by region and class.

I think we often think integration means adopting the same attitudes and asperations, but that's to set the bar far higher than we do for the "indigenous" population.

Integration has really occurred when people are simply not surprised to see each other on the street, not troubled by each others presence in the same community. That doesn't take cultural assimilation. It just takes time so that seeing the differences is perfectly normal and not threatening.

Some of the worst integrated people in our society are white working class young males.

[WinstonWolf]

Alpinestars said:

ATG said:

amusingduck said:

crankedup said:

What exactly is integration, I mean if/when a town has become integrated how is that identified as such?

Good question.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Absence of segregation is probably a good starting point?

It is an excellent question, particularly when you consider that the white British population itself isn't particularly integrated to start with. We are still hugely divided by region and class.

I think we often think integration means adopting the same attitudes and asperations, but that's to set the bar far higher than we do for the "indigenous" population.

Integration has really occurred when people are simply not surprised to see each other on the street, not troubled by each others presence in the same community. That doesn't take cultural assimilation. It just takes time so that seeing the differences is perfectly normal and not threatening.

Some of the worst integrated people in our society are white working class young males.

I'd say the young 'innits' are no different...

[Earthdweller]

Alpinestars said:

ATG said:

amusingduck said:

crankedup said:

What exactly is integration, I mean if/when a town has become integrated how is that identified as such?

Good question.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Absence of segregation is probably a good starting point?

It is an excellent question, particularly when you consider that the white British population itself isn't particularly integrated to start with. We are still hugely divided by region and class.

I think we often think integration means adopting the same attitudes and asperations, but that's to set the bar far higher than we do for the "indigenous" population.

Integration has really occurred when people are simply not surprised to see each other on the street, not troubled by each others presence in the same community. That doesn't take cultural assimilation. It just takes time so that seeing the differences is perfectly normal and not threatening.

Some of the worst integrated people in our society are white working class young males.

My family hails from what is now the Asian area of the town

And whilst I wouldn’t voluntarily go back and live there again I’d probably rather there than the rough white estates like shadsworth on the south side of Blackburn if I ever end up down on my luck !

[Boosted LS1]

On the whole white people are very integrated. I can drink in any pubs that I like and go to restaurants anywhere I like. etc. People may have different skills when it comes to manners or social skills but unless you're a thug you will integrate in a white society if you are white.

Of course we have a few nut jobs but that's hardly the same as the culture being discussed here or on tv that doesn't integrate for whatever reason.

[anonymous-user]

Whilst I sympathize with the view that immigrants should make some effort to assimilate, let’s be honest the local culture where so many new immigrants end up in the UK is probably not one worth copying. I’m a white immigrant in a Caribbean country and the same complaint of failing to integrate is often leveled at us, more often than not by the people who have the least intention of making it easy...

[Boosted LS1]

^ That's interesting. Are you just the random white guy or have your type arrived in droves? I've had to try to be sensitive with my words. Whereabouts are you if I may ask?

[Alpinestars]

WinstonWolf said:

I'd say the young 'innits' are no different...

A word used by chavs of all ethnic origins.

[WinstonWolf]

Alpinestars said:

WinstonWolf said:

I'd say the young 'innits' are no different...

A word used by chavs of all ethnic origins.

Strangely I view them all as chavs, the only difference is the colour of their skin. They're all assholes...

[andymc]

so why do Asians/Pakistani men who are supposedly Westernised treat women like st?

[Halb]

Why do any men?