Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)
Discussion
Gandahar said:
David Cameron. Where is he now?
He didn't get the result he wanted and then as Captain decided to get on the first available life boat it seems.
Well done David. Your middle names are not Churchill or Winston I assume....
Possibly one of the most appropriate things he's ever done. He campaigned against it therefore, logically, he wasn't the best reason to try implementing it. Firstly he didn't believe in it and secondly people would doubt what his intentions were.He didn't get the result he wanted and then as Captain decided to get on the first available life boat it seems.
Well done David. Your middle names are not Churchill or Winston I assume....
A brexiteer should have been appointed as PM.
Countdown said:
Gandahar said:
David Cameron. Where is he now?
He didn't get the result he wanted and then as Captain decided to get on the first available life boat it seems.
Well done David. Your middle names are not Churchill or Winston I assume....
Possibly one of the most appropriate things he's ever done. He campaigned against it therefore, logically, he wasn't the best reason to try implementing it. Firstly he didn't believe in it and secondly people would doubt what his intentions were.He didn't get the result he wanted and then as Captain decided to get on the first available life boat it seems.
Well done David. Your middle names are not Churchill or Winston I assume....
A brexiteer should have been appointed as PM.
If you remember the conservatives had a vote and May (remainer) won, with the vote from 199 MPs Andrea Leadsom (Brexiter) got 84
Michael Gove (brexiter) only got 46 votes.
I’m not sure I’d want Leadsom or Gove running the country really,
tters on one side, bed wetters on the other. Seems we're a nation of incontinents.It's all hypopethitical but here's how democracy works.
Committed Brexiteers assume there is a huge groundswell of opinion every bit as committed as themselves. Truth is the leave vote won by a very small majority. Of that Leave vote there is the nutty element. Those of you with a large Facebook friendbase will notice a hard core of sadsacks who have Union Jacks or Poppies as profile pictures and rant a lot about Europe, Muslims and are still moaning that this is still not their country.
A mistake this lot make is they reckon the Leave voters are, to a man, like minded. In truth a chunk voted in expectation of being considerably better off. If (and I am saying if) everything goes tits up the pragmatic self interested element of the Leave vote will change their minds.
Switched on Brexiteets are very aware of this and are genuinely concerned.
It is very unlikely to happen however. Had we a soft centre left pro Europe Blair type Labour opposition Brexit would be a in very precarious position. If such a party was to make an referendum offering an overturn of Brexit part of an election manifesto and was that referendum to provide a majority in favour of cancelling Brexit the Brexit will be cancelled due to the democratic will of the people. Brexiteers needn't worry however. We have a hard line socialist party as the opposition and who hope to intervene, nationalise and subsidise in a way Europe would never allow. To do what they want to do Britain must be out of Europe. This being the case Brexit will be followed through regardless of the party in charge.
Committed Brexiteers assume there is a huge groundswell of opinion every bit as committed as themselves. Truth is the leave vote won by a very small majority. Of that Leave vote there is the nutty element. Those of you with a large Facebook friendbase will notice a hard core of sadsacks who have Union Jacks or Poppies as profile pictures and rant a lot about Europe, Muslims and are still moaning that this is still not their country.
A mistake this lot make is they reckon the Leave voters are, to a man, like minded. In truth a chunk voted in expectation of being considerably better off. If (and I am saying if) everything goes tits up the pragmatic self interested element of the Leave vote will change their minds.
Switched on Brexiteets are very aware of this and are genuinely concerned.
It is very unlikely to happen however. Had we a soft centre left pro Europe Blair type Labour opposition Brexit would be a in very precarious position. If such a party was to make an referendum offering an overturn of Brexit part of an election manifesto and was that referendum to provide a majority in favour of cancelling Brexit the Brexit will be cancelled due to the democratic will of the people. Brexiteers needn't worry however. We have a hard line socialist party as the opposition and who hope to intervene, nationalise and subsidise in a way Europe would never allow. To do what they want to do Britain must be out of Europe. This being the case Brexit will be followed through regardless of the party in charge.
Tannedbaldhead said:
It's all hypopethitical but here's how democracy works.
Committed Brexiteers assume there is a huge groundswell of opinion every bit as committed as themselves. Truth is the leave vote won by a very small majority. Of that Leave vote there is the nutty element. Those of you with a large Facebook friendbase will notice a hard core of sadsacks who have Union Jacks or Poppies as profile pictures and rant a lot about Europe, Muslims and are still moaning that this is still not their country.
A mistake this lot make is they reckon the Leave voters are, to a man, like minded. In truth a chunk voted in expectation of being considerably better off. If (and I am saying if) everything goes tits up the pragmatic self interested element of the Leave vote will change their minds.
Switched on Brexiteets are very aware of this and are genuinely concerned.
It is very unlikely to happen however. Had we a soft centre left pro Europe Blair type Labour opposition Brexit would be a in very precarious position. If such a party was to make an referendum offering an overturn of Brexit part of an election manifesto and was that referendum to provide a majority in favour of cancelling Brexit the Brexit will be cancelled due to the democratic will of the people. Brexiteers needn't worry however. We have a hard line socialist party as the opposition and who hope to intervene, nationalise and subsidise in a way Europe would never allow. To do what they want to do Britain must be out of Europe. This being the case Brexit will be followed through regardless of the party in charge.
I think you're right in that this isn't a path we can turn back on, so we really have to figure out the best way forward.Committed Brexiteers assume there is a huge groundswell of opinion every bit as committed as themselves. Truth is the leave vote won by a very small majority. Of that Leave vote there is the nutty element. Those of you with a large Facebook friendbase will notice a hard core of sadsacks who have Union Jacks or Poppies as profile pictures and rant a lot about Europe, Muslims and are still moaning that this is still not their country.
A mistake this lot make is they reckon the Leave voters are, to a man, like minded. In truth a chunk voted in expectation of being considerably better off. If (and I am saying if) everything goes tits up the pragmatic self interested element of the Leave vote will change their minds.
Switched on Brexiteets are very aware of this and are genuinely concerned.
It is very unlikely to happen however. Had we a soft centre left pro Europe Blair type Labour opposition Brexit would be a in very precarious position. If such a party was to make an referendum offering an overturn of Brexit part of an election manifesto and was that referendum to provide a majority in favour of cancelling Brexit the Brexit will be cancelled due to the democratic will of the people. Brexiteers needn't worry however. We have a hard line socialist party as the opposition and who hope to intervene, nationalise and subsidise in a way Europe would never allow. To do what they want to do Britain must be out of Europe. This being the case Brexit will be followed through regardless of the party in charge.
It's strange that you would suggest that leave voters believe everyone shares the same opinion - when it has been the hardcore Remainers on these threads who've talked about leavers all being xenophobic and thick. Once you get away from the extremes of opinion, people on both sides voted for a wide range of reasons - including party allegiances, workplace politics, naked self interest, belief in particular commentators, desire for stability, or desire for a change. It was a mistake to try to boil such a complex issue down to a yes or no, but in many ways democracy filtered all of the reasons to stay or go to a simple decision.
What was most remarkable was that the government position, and the status quo are very rarely overturned by such polls, so a Leave vote was a shock to just about everyone.
Now the issue is making the most of our future outside of the EU. It was never about reaching the land of milk and honey, nor a radical rethink of the EU.
But suggesting that a 'middle ground' party would have been able to return the UK to membership flies in the face of what we've seen. Alastair Campbell has been behind a couple of concerted attempts to create exactly that sort of movement - with a festival event (cancelled, I think?), organised protests and a 'new' party. All have fallen flat, and were only really noticed by people who follow the political blogs. Others have also tried - including the LibDems and a couple of independent parties. None have gained traction. There just isn't the will. I think the strong votes we've seen in parliament have reflected that - most MPs know that leaving is pretty much unavoidable now.
Tuna said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
It's all hypopethitical but here's how democracy works.
Committed Brexiteers assume there is a huge groundswell of opinion every bit as committed as themselves. Truth is the leave vote won by a very small majority. Of that Leave vote there is the nutty element. Those of you with a large Facebook friendbase will notice a hard core of sadsacks who have Union Jacks or Poppies as profile pictures and rant a lot about Europe, Muslims and are still moaning that this is still not their country.
A mistake this lot make is they reckon the Leave voters are, to a man, like minded. In truth a chunk voted in expectation of being considerably better off. If (and I am saying if) everything goes tits up the pragmatic self interested element of the Leave vote will change their minds.
Switched on Brexiteets are very aware of this and are genuinely concerned.
It is very unlikely to happen however. Had we a soft centre left pro Europe Blair type Labour opposition Brexit would be a in very precarious position. If such a party was to make an referendum offering an overturn of Brexit part of an election manifesto and was that referendum to provide a majority in favour of cancelling Brexit the Brexit will be cancelled due to the democratic will of the people. Brexiteers needn't worry however. We have a hard line socialist party as the opposition and who hope to intervene, nationalise and subsidise in a way Europe would never allow. To do what they want to do Britain must be out of Europe. This being the case Brexit will be followed through regardless of the party in charge.
I think you're right in that this isn't a path we can turn back on, so we really have to figure out the best way forward.Committed Brexiteers assume there is a huge groundswell of opinion every bit as committed as themselves. Truth is the leave vote won by a very small majority. Of that Leave vote there is the nutty element. Those of you with a large Facebook friendbase will notice a hard core of sadsacks who have Union Jacks or Poppies as profile pictures and rant a lot about Europe, Muslims and are still moaning that this is still not their country.
A mistake this lot make is they reckon the Leave voters are, to a man, like minded. In truth a chunk voted in expectation of being considerably better off. If (and I am saying if) everything goes tits up the pragmatic self interested element of the Leave vote will change their minds.
Switched on Brexiteets are very aware of this and are genuinely concerned.
It is very unlikely to happen however. Had we a soft centre left pro Europe Blair type Labour opposition Brexit would be a in very precarious position. If such a party was to make an referendum offering an overturn of Brexit part of an election manifesto and was that referendum to provide a majority in favour of cancelling Brexit the Brexit will be cancelled due to the democratic will of the people. Brexiteers needn't worry however. We have a hard line socialist party as the opposition and who hope to intervene, nationalise and subsidise in a way Europe would never allow. To do what they want to do Britain must be out of Europe. This being the case Brexit will be followed through regardless of the party in charge.
It's strange that you would suggest that leave voters believe everyone shares the same opinion - when it has been the hardcore Remainers on these threads who've talked about leavers all being xenophobic and thick. Once you get away from the extremes of opinion, people on both sides voted for a wide range of reasons - including party allegiances, workplace politics, naked self interest, belief in particular commentators, desire for stability, or desire for a change. It was a mistake to try to boil such a complex issue down to a yes or no, but in many ways democracy filtered all of the reasons to stay or go to a simple decision.
What was most remarkable was that the government position, and the status quo are very rarely overturned by such polls, so a Leave vote was a shock to just about everyone.
Now the issue is making the most of our future outside of the EU. It was never about reaching the land of milk and honey, nor a radical rethink of the EU.
But suggesting that a 'middle ground' party would have been able to return the UK to membership flies in the face of what we've seen. Alastair Campbell has been behind a couple of concerted attempts to create exactly that sort of movement - with a festival event (cancelled, I think?), organised protests and a 'new' party. All have fallen flat, and were only really noticed by people who follow the political blogs. Others have also tried - including the LibDems and a couple of independent parties. None have gained traction. There just isn't the will. I think the strong votes we've seen in parliament have reflected that - most MPs know that leaving is pretty much unavoidable now.
And we don't know how long the EU will limp on, without our money to bribe member states and after the crappy way they are trying it on with us will they get new members
to join their grubby project ???
powerstroke said:
Yes good points..
And we don't know how long the EU will limp on, without our money to bribe member states and after the crappy way they are trying it on with us will they get new members
to join their grubby project ???
The new members will likely be net beneficiaries, not net contributors, so not sure they will be put off by this!And we don't know how long the EU will limp on, without our money to bribe member states and after the crappy way they are trying it on with us will they get new members
to join their grubby project ???
Jazzy Jag said:
And tomorrow the deal will be moving forward. Blair is a disliked dinosaur. Burwood said:
Jazzy Jag said:
And tomorrow the deal will be moving forward. Blair is a disliked dinosaur. 
Jazzy Jag said:
Posted this on the other thread.The below is allegedly a memo sent from Blair to Alastair Campbell:
Dear Alastair,
While commending your enthusiasm for the cause I wouldn’t want you to antagonise the British people, particularly former Labour supporters who made the mistake of voting for Brexit. Our task is more subtle. It’s to force the government to negotiate with every vested interest in this country rather than the EU, so we don’t build up anger against Europe. The aim must be to make Brexit look so difficult that government gives up rather than increases dislike of an EU which is so good for our people, even if they don’t know it. With this in mind I suggest:
1. Pretend to accept the referendum result. No use putting it down to lies, Russian gold, or “too close to call”. The majority was bigger and clearer than what the Tories got in 2010, 2015 or 2017. People won’t like being told their votes don’t count.
2. Don’t call Brexit voters stupid, under-educated, racist or gullible. Many of them voted for me. We won’t win their votes back by abusing them.
3. Don’t defend the EU’s point of view: say they’re right to require us to jump three hurdles before they’ll talk nitty gritty, or suggest offering them bucket loads of money. As negotiations turn nasty, we can’t afford to appear to be on the other side, rather than Britain’s.
4. Don’t fraternise with the enemy or run to Juncker, Merkel or Macron. All these pilgrimages (mea culpa) make it look as though we’re helping them and snitching on Britain.
5. Don’t bang on about the joys of the Single Market – we’re in a deficit of £60 billion with it and selling off railways, companies and utilities to finance it. So defend it as better than being assaulted by Trump and forced to eat chlorinated chicken.
6. Don’t start attacking the government for being too tough in the negotiations. However incompetently, they are carrying out the wishes of people and, to be realistic, the EU has us over a barrel if it just sits there and demands that Britain jumps through hoops and hands over huge sums before it can be told what it can get. If it had any sense, the government would start whipping up anger about EU intransigence and we don’t want to be seen as defending that, however much it helps us.
7. This government could collapse, bringing Labour into power. Then our former party will have to choose between fighting and failing. We can’t trust Corbyn to see things our way, but it will be disastrous to be seen as the sell-out party.
8. Much as cosmopolitans like you, me and Peter love the EU, it was always a deal designed to suit the interests of France and Germany rather than Britain. So it’s no use portraying it as Britain’s salvation and the greatest thing since Sure Start. It’s a good idea to urge changes which will make it better for Britain. They won’t happen, of course, but it makes us look better than telling people it’s wonderful when they know it isn’t. Talk of returning to “lead” Europe is better than admitting that we’d be slinking back, humiliated, to sit on the naughty step.
9. Another fear campaign won’t work. People won’t believe it any more but it’s difficult to admit that our government allowed manufacturing to shrink so far that Britain can neither pay its way nor support the structures of an advanced society. So talk of all the help we get from the EU without saying ‘it’s our own money back’. Don’t mention the drain of belonging or Germany’s huge surpluses at our expense.
10. Accept that Britain has its problems but don’t admit to the scale of a disaster which can be blamed on us. In or out of the EU, we’ll face the huge problem of building back to viability. We must avoid the Dunkirk spirit for the moment, but create just enough fear to make people think it’s safer in the EU than standing up for ourselves. This is a bit difficult because Europe punishes failures like Greece rather than helping lame dogs over styles. So we need to concentrate on suggesting domestic reforms, particularly any which help such symbols of our national greatness as the City of London, the banks, the multinationals and all those foreign investors who’ve bought up our companies, utilities, railways and properties because of their faith in this country. Keep the people happy by building more houses and offering bigger mortgages, rather than dirty factories or risky investments.
11. Warn about galloping inflation rather than the cheaper food available outside EU agricultural protectionism.
12. Don’t mention the war, Germany or the euro. Your skill at putting a first-class case for second-rate policies served us well in the old days before Gordon messed it all up. Now the issue is not the future Labour offers Britain, but the gloomier one Brexit offers you and me. I don’t want to diminish your enthusiasm for the cause but we must not open ourselves up to accusations of sexing up the EU or offering another dodgy dossier. This is an occasion when the hand of history must be portrayed as punching our people in the gut, rather than resting on the shoulders of you and I, or the rest of Britain’s elite.
Yours Fraternally,
Tony
don'tbesilly said:
Jazzy Jag said:
Posted this on the other thread.The below is allegedly a memo sent from Blair to Alastair Campbell:
Dear Alastair,
While commending your enthusiasm for the cause I wouldn’t want you to antagonise the British people, particularly former Labour supporters who made the mistake of voting for Brexit. Our task is more subtle. It’s to force the government to negotiate with every vested interest in this country rather than the EU, so we don’t build up anger against Europe. The aim must be to make Brexit look so difficult that government gives up rather than increases dislike of an EU which is so good for our people, even if they don’t know it. With this in mind I suggest:
1. Pretend to accept the referendum result. No use putting it down to lies, Russian gold, or “too close to call”. The majority was bigger and clearer than what the Tories got in 2010, 2015 or 2017. People won’t like being told their votes don’t count.
2. Don’t call Brexit voters stupid, under-educated, racist or gullible. Many of them voted for me. We won’t win their votes back by abusing them.
3. Don’t defend the EU’s point of view: say they’re right to require us to jump three hurdles before they’ll talk nitty gritty, or suggest offering them bucket loads of money. As negotiations turn nasty, we can’t afford to appear to be on the other side, rather than Britain’s.
4. Don’t fraternise with the enemy or run to Juncker, Merkel or Macron. All these pilgrimages (mea culpa) make it look as though we’re helping them and snitching on Britain.
5. Don’t bang on about the joys of the Single Market – we’re in a deficit of £60 billion with it and selling off railways, companies and utilities to finance it. So defend it as better than being assaulted by Trump and forced to eat chlorinated chicken.
6. Don’t start attacking the government for being too tough in the negotiations. However incompetently, they are carrying out the wishes of people and, to be realistic, the EU has us over a barrel if it just sits there and demands that Britain jumps through hoops and hands over huge sums before it can be told what it can get. If it had any sense, the government would start whipping up anger about EU intransigence and we don’t want to be seen as defending that, however much it helps us.
7. This government could collapse, bringing Labour into power. Then our former party will have to choose between fighting and failing. We can’t trust Corbyn to see things our way, but it will be disastrous to be seen as the sell-out party.
8. Much as cosmopolitans like you, me and Peter love the EU, it was always a deal designed to suit the interests of France and Germany rather than Britain. So it’s no use portraying it as Britain’s salvation and the greatest thing since Sure Start. It’s a good idea to urge changes which will make it better for Britain. They won’t happen, of course, but it makes us look better than telling people it’s wonderful when they know it isn’t. Talk of returning to “lead” Europe is better than admitting that we’d be slinking back, humiliated, to sit on the naughty step.
9. Another fear campaign won’t work. People won’t believe it any more but it’s difficult to admit that our government allowed manufacturing to shrink so far that Britain can neither pay its way nor support the structures of an advanced society. So talk of all the help we get from the EU without saying ‘it’s our own money back’. Don’t mention the drain of belonging or Germany’s huge surpluses at our expense.
10. Accept that Britain has its problems but don’t admit to the scale of a disaster which can be blamed on us. In or out of the EU, we’ll face the huge problem of building back to viability. We must avoid the Dunkirk spirit for the moment, but create just enough fear to make people think it’s safer in the EU than standing up for ourselves. This is a bit difficult because Europe punishes failures like Greece rather than helping lame dogs over styles. So we need to concentrate on suggesting domestic reforms, particularly any which help such symbols of our national greatness as the City of London, the banks, the multinationals and all those foreign investors who’ve bought up our companies, utilities, railways and properties because of their faith in this country. Keep the people happy by building more houses and offering bigger mortgages, rather than dirty factories or risky investments.
11. Warn about galloping inflation rather than the cheaper food available outside EU agricultural protectionism.
12. Don’t mention the war, Germany or the euro. Your skill at putting a first-class case for second-rate policies served us well in the old days before Gordon messed it all up. Now the issue is not the future Labour offers Britain, but the gloomier one Brexit offers you and me. I don’t want to diminish your enthusiasm for the cause but we must not open ourselves up to accusations of sexing up the EU or offering another dodgy dossier. This is an occasion when the hand of history must be portrayed as punching our people in the gut, rather than resting on the shoulders of you and I, or the rest of Britain’s elite.
Yours Fraternally,
Tony
Now that we have Nige Kinda maybe asking for another referendum it's got me wondering what each side will be offering if it goes ahead.
I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?
I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?
Ghibli said:
Now that we have Nige Kinda maybe asking for another referendum it's got me wondering what each side will be offering if it goes ahead.
I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?
Blue passports, a return to feet, inches, roods, chains, pounds and stones, Taking Back Control. Sovereignty. £350m a week for the NHS, immigration, securing borders. Turkey joining the EU and flooding the country with suicide bombers and beggars in near equal measure. The EU army patrolling the streets of London, Federal Union, the EUSSR forcing us to abolish the pound and adopt German. Cake and eating it the world over on trade deals. The death of our fishing industry. Socialism crushing us. Bojo, Gove, IDS visiting foreign countries in Lancaster bombers. But especially blue passports. I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?
All this shows is how insatiable Farage’s appetite for being in the public eye is. Yesterday’s man hates being forgotten.
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