Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)
Discussion
Greg66 said:
Blue passports, a return to feet, inches, roods, chains, pounds and stones, Taking Back Control. Sovereignty. £350m a week for the NHS, immigration, securing borders. Turkey joining the EU and flooding the country with suicide bombers and beggars in near equal measure. The EU army patrolling the streets of London, Federal Union, the EUSSR forcing us to abolish the pound and adopt German. Cake and eating it the world over on trade deals. The death of our fishing industry. Socialism crushing us. Bojo, Gove, IDS visiting foreign countries in Lancaster bombers. But especially blue passports.
All this shows is how insatiable Farage’s appetite for being in the public eye is. Yesterday’s man hates being forgotten.
Still so vexed. All this shows is how insatiable Farage’s appetite for being in the public eye is. Yesterday’s man hates being forgotten.
Ghibli said:
Now that we have Nige Kinda maybe asking for another referendum it's got me wondering what each side will be offering if it goes ahead.
I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?
I would be amazed if Remain campaigned on a platform that suggested things could "stay as they are". That would be fantasy land given the last 18 months of the EU. They would have to put out a plan whereby reform could be genuinely undertaken (beyond the woolly claims that "we have influence") and they would have to deal with the marginalisation that vetoing our way out of an increasingly integrated club would involve.I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?
Leave would have to provide a clearer vision of what out would mean. Out of the single market, true financial reform for systems like CAP and regional subsidies, skills based immigration control and strategies for reaching out globally for trade, research and innovation etc. They should also have a bus.
To be honest though, we'd still get the same fringe looneys, suggesting armageddon if we leave/stay; accusing the other side of racism or abandoning our identity; claims that whatever the other side proposes is physically impossible; attacks by association; attempts to make the decision a party issue and so on. Half of the debate would be people flat out contradicting each other about how far and how successful the Brexit negotiations have been to date.
Tuna said:
I would be amazed if Remain campaigned on a platform that suggested things could "stay as they are". That would be fantasy land given the last 18 months of the EU. They would have to put out a plan whereby reform could be genuinely undertaken (beyond the woolly claims that "we have influence") and they would have to deal with the marginalisation that vetoing our way out of an increasingly integrated club would involve.
Leave would have to provide a clearer vision of what out would mean. Out of the single market, true financial reform for systems like CAP and regional subsidies, skills based immigration control and strategies for reaching out globally for trade, research and innovation etc. They should also have a bus.
To be honest though, we'd still get the same fringe looneys, suggesting armageddon if we leave/stay; accusing the other side of racism or abandoning our identity; claims that whatever the other side proposes is physically impossible; attacks by association; attempts to make the decision a party issue and so on. Half of the debate would be people flat out contradicting each other about how far and how successful the Brexit negotiations have been to date.
You forget to mention the benefits of the actions that leave will be taking. I assume that will be part of the campaign.Leave would have to provide a clearer vision of what out would mean. Out of the single market, true financial reform for systems like CAP and regional subsidies, skills based immigration control and strategies for reaching out globally for trade, research and innovation etc. They should also have a bus.
To be honest though, we'd still get the same fringe looneys, suggesting armageddon if we leave/stay; accusing the other side of racism or abandoning our identity; claims that whatever the other side proposes is physically impossible; attacks by association; attempts to make the decision a party issue and so on. Half of the debate would be people flat out contradicting each other about how far and how successful the Brexit negotiations have been to date.
Ghibli said:
Now that we have Nige Kinda maybe asking for another referendum it's got me wondering what each side will be offering if it goes ahead.
I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?
Farage was on R4 this morning. His position is that he does not want another Referendum, but he is coming to the conclusion that one may be inevitable. I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?
I doubt that it's a coincidence that this morning a group of senior lawyers has written to the PM, to offer their opinion that Article 50 can be revoked without any loss of UK privileges - a return to the status quo ante Referendum if you like.
All we need now is for the EU to confirm that the lawyers opinion is indeed correct and the stage is set for a second referendum.
It would probably go something like this:
1. EU confirms that revoking Article 50 before March 2019 would allow UK to remain in the EU on the terms that it currently has
2. EU will deliberately negotiate a truly awful deal with the UK - one that is likely to be unacceptable to Parliament, thereby giving Parliament 3 choices - a) to accept that deal, b) to reject the deal and exit on WTO, c) to have a second referendum on the deal so that the people can make the final decision.
Be under no illusions though, the Ref2 strategy has but one aim - to over turn the result of the first.
3. The Ref2 campaign will be even nastier and more divisive than the first. I fear that whichever side wins there will be significant political upheaval.
I am confident that Leave would win again - historically the British are not so easily bullied as the Irish or the Dutch - but whichever way it goes, unless its a significant margin, the divisions and arguments will go on.
andymadmak said:
Farage was on R4 this morning. His position is that he does not want another Referendum, but he is coming to the conclusion that one may be inevitable.
I doubt that it's a coincidence that this morning a group of senior lawyers has written to the PM, to offer their opinion that Article 50 can be revoked without any loss of UK privileges - a return to the status quo ante Referendum if you like.
All we need now is for the EU to confirm that the lawyers opinion is indeed correct and the stage is set for a second referendum.
It would probably go something like this:
1. EU confirms that revoking Article 50 before March 2019 would allow UK to remain in the EU on the terms that it currently has
2. EU will deliberately negotiate a truly awful deal with the UK - one that is likely to be unacceptable to Parliament, thereby giving Parliament 3 choices - a) to accept that deal, b) to reject the deal and exit on WTO, c) to have a second referendum on the deal so that the people can make the final decision.
Be under no illusions though, the Ref2 strategy has but one aim - to over turn the result of the first.
3. The Ref2 campaign will be even nastier and more divisive than the first. I fear that whichever side wins there will be significant political upheaval.
I am confident that Leave would win again - historically the British are not so easily bullied as the Irish or the Dutch - but whichever way it goes, unless its a significant margin, the divisions and arguments will go on.
The trouble with that is that if the EU only offers a truly awful deal then the UK public is likely to stick two fingers up at the EU and reaffirm leaving.I doubt that it's a coincidence that this morning a group of senior lawyers has written to the PM, to offer their opinion that Article 50 can be revoked without any loss of UK privileges - a return to the status quo ante Referendum if you like.
All we need now is for the EU to confirm that the lawyers opinion is indeed correct and the stage is set for a second referendum.
It would probably go something like this:
1. EU confirms that revoking Article 50 before March 2019 would allow UK to remain in the EU on the terms that it currently has
2. EU will deliberately negotiate a truly awful deal with the UK - one that is likely to be unacceptable to Parliament, thereby giving Parliament 3 choices - a) to accept that deal, b) to reject the deal and exit on WTO, c) to have a second referendum on the deal so that the people can make the final decision.
Be under no illusions though, the Ref2 strategy has but one aim - to over turn the result of the first.
3. The Ref2 campaign will be even nastier and more divisive than the first. I fear that whichever side wins there will be significant political upheaval.
I am confident that Leave would win again - historically the British are not so easily bullied as the Irish or the Dutch - but whichever way it goes, unless its a significant margin, the divisions and arguments will go on.
Tuna said:
If you don't think global trade, innovation and research, and reform of CAP and regional subsides aren't benefits, then there's no hope for you.
It would depend on any trade deals that we get. Apparently we are good at making good quick trade deals. Just not with the EU but the rest of the world will be like putty in our hands.Ghibli said:
It doesn't make sense. If Farage doesn't want referendum he shouldn't be saying he kinda wants one.
The author of article 50 has already said it can be revoked.
I suggest you listen to the R4 interview this morning. He makes clear what he wants/does not want. It makes sense if you listen. The author of article 50 has already said it can be revoked.
Yes the A50 Author has said it can be revoked. The new bit of news is that a group of Barristers has apparently studied the law and given their opinion that he is correct in his assertion. It's still only an opinion, and as I understand it nobody at the EU has said officially "yes that is correct" . Until somebody does that on an official basis, it's still just opinions and speculation.
p1stonhead said:
Despite the last 18 months, I think a second referendum would be bloody close again. Can’t see many on either side have changed their mind. Everyone is too entrenched.
On this basis it’s probably pointless to have another one. As said above, things would get really nasty again.
I'd agree that those who voted in Ref1 will likely vote more or less the same for a Ref2. On this basis it’s probably pointless to have another one. As said above, things would get really nasty again.
The 'new' swing votes will come from those who didn't vote in Ref1 now deciding they know which way they want to go and realising their vote will make a difference. These are the Voters the Campaigners will be aiming to attract.
Ghibli said:
Tuna said:
If you don't think global trade, innovation and research, and reform of CAP and regional subsides aren't benefits, then there's no hope for you.
It would depend on any trade deals that we get. Ghibli said:
Apparently we are good at making good quick trade deals. Just not with the EU but the rest of the world will be like putty in our hands.
Are we good at making quick trade deals? That's news to me, especially as we haven't been able to negotiate our own trade deals for rather a long time (due to EU membership) I think the negotiations with the EU are a special case, wouldn't you agree? As such it's not sensible to compare those negotiations with others that we may have elsewhere.
I doubt that the ROW will be putty in our hands. But equally we are a large, rich, developed market, well regulated, low corruption and with clearly defined processes. All this makes the UK an attractive proposition does it not?
Coolbanana said:
I'd agree that those who voted in Ref1 will likely vote more or less the same for a Ref2.
The 'new' swing votes will come from those who didn't vote in Ref1 now deciding they know which way they want to go and realising their vote will make a difference. These are the Voters the Campaigners will be aiming to attract.
What's it worth to you gov?The 'new' swing votes will come from those who didn't vote in Ref1 now deciding they know which way they want to go and realising their vote will make a difference. These are the Voters the Campaigners will be aiming to attract.
Ghibli said:
It would depend on any trade deals that we get. Apparently we are good at making good quick trade deals. Just not with the EU but the rest of the world will be like putty in our hands.
Absolutely! The UK will be flooded with little wooden carvings of animals from Uganda in no time! Everyone's mantelpiece will be happy, what's not to like? Let's not forget an influx of cheap Chinese cars aping the rip-off originals too! Why buy a BMW when you can have a Shuanguan?
Greg66 said:
Blue passports, a return to feet, inches, roods, chains, pounds and stones, Taking Back Control. Sovereignty. £350m a week for the NHS, immigration, securing borders. Turkey joining the EU and flooding the country with suicide bombers and beggars in near equal measure. The EU army patrolling the streets of London, Federal Union, the EUSSR forcing us to abolish the pound and adopt German. Cake and eating it the world over on trade deals. The death of our fishing industry. Socialism crushing us. Bojo, Gove, IDS visiting foreign countries in Lancaster bombers. But especially blue passports.
All this shows is how insatiable Farage’s appetite for being in the public eye is. Yesterday’s man hates being forgotten.
Pounds, shillings and pence is what I'm looking forward to. I was too young to get the hang of it last time around but it will give us all a good workout with mental arithmetic, something the younger generation is sadly lacking. I'm looking forward to watching the 20-somethings get their iPhones out to start working out how much their shopping adds to.All this shows is how insatiable Farage’s appetite for being in the public eye is. Yesterday’s man hates being forgotten.
andymadmak said:
I suggest you listen to the R4 interview this morning. He makes clear what he wants/does not want. It makes sense if you listen.
Yes the A50 Author has said it can be revoked. The new bit of news is that a group of Barristers has apparently studied the law and given their opinion that he is correct in his assertion. It's still only an opinion, and as I understand it nobody at the EU has said officially "yes that is correct" . Until somebody does that on an official basis, it's still just opinions and speculation.
I will be honest and say that I haven't listened to the R4 interview yet.Yes the A50 Author has said it can be revoked. The new bit of news is that a group of Barristers has apparently studied the law and given their opinion that he is correct in his assertion. It's still only an opinion, and as I understand it nobody at the EU has said officially "yes that is correct" . Until somebody does that on an official basis, it's still just opinions and speculation.
IMO the article 50 part is a red herring and he has bolted early. It makes no difference unless he is saying we should have another ref because art 50 is revocable or we should have another ref because it is not.
Either way neither make sense not knowing whether it can be revoked, unless Farage hasn't mentioned art 50.
andymadmak said:
Are we good at making quick trade deals? That's news to me, especially as we haven't been able to negotiate our own trade deals for rather a long time (due to EU membership)
I think the negotiations with the EU are a special case, wouldn't you agree? As such it's not sensible to compare those negotiations with others that we may have elsewhere.
Andrea leadsom is on record saying that we will be able to complete trade deals in 18months.I think the negotiations with the EU are a special case, wouldn't you agree? As such it's not sensible to compare those negotiations with others that we may have elsewhere.
It was part of the official leave campaign.
Zigster said:
Pounds, shillings and pence is what I'm looking forward to. I was too young to get the hang of it last time around but it will give us all a good workout with mental arithmetic, something the younger generation is sadly lacking. I'm looking forward to watching the 20-somethings get their iPhones out to start working out how much their shopping adds to.
Noting quite as satisfying as working in base 12 (with halves) and base 20 at the same time. I also welcome big white £5 notes the size of table napkins, three television channels plus closedown and the national anthem at midnight, Harold Wilson, Watneys Party 7, Paul Masson's Californian Carafes instead of that filthy French muck, spam, eggs, chips, more spam, a return to tinned food, power cuts, Tomorrow's World when it really was tomorrow's world, proper dog turds that were left where they fell and went white in the sun, rationing, Glenn Miller, Sir Edmund Hilary on the roof of the world, silicon chips talked about in wonderment, Star Trek not Star Wars, Grandstand, World of Sport, Frank Bough, Dickie Davies, and westerns on a Sunday afternoon.
It will be glorious.
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