Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[Coolbanana]

mx5nut said:

Boris Johnson would 'rather stay in' the EU than accept a soft Brexit

Farage calling for a second ref, Boris having doubts about the dream coming true.

The cracks are starting to show.

Always very predicable. No need for 273 fake or ridiculous reasons to Leave the EU to see it would be a daft.

Boris is right, of course. Leaving the EU is a gamble that can only ever be remotely beneficial to the UK in terms of being better off than it is now if it was a so-called 'hard brexit'.

The idea being to demonstrate that better deals can be made with the ROW and that the EU would offer a decent Trade deal of its own with the UK - "because it needs to". I don't buy into it, I think a hard brexit will downsize the UK hugely, but that is the risk and gamble Brexiteers voted for.

A 'soft brexit' that aligns itself to EU Rules in order to function at all is simply EU-Lite. Why have EU-Lite with no voice or all benefits of membership when you can have full-fat with special extras - as the UK enjoyed thanks to a skilled negotiation Team in the past.

So dumb. Anyway, Farage and now Boris. As you say, the cracks are widening and Brexit in its current mandate is unravelling. They are warming the voters up for either a new mandate for a definite hard brexit or to remain after all in it seems. The half-way house the UK is heading for now isn't working for the hard-liners and it while it will placate many Remainers I think, it will prove to be an embarrassment down the line compared to simply staying in.

[anonymous-user]

SpeckledJim said:

Honest question. Would you prefer:

This all to go badly for the UK, and you to be proven right.

This all to go well for the UK, and you to be proven wrong.

I would prefer that it went well. The problem I have is with the way it is going.

I didn't believe the fairytales from the beginning and I don't believe them now.

If it is a success the government will champion their success, if it fails it will be the will of the people. The one thing that is certain, it will not be my fault if it fails unless this PH forum is in charge of the negotiating.

[KrissKross]

Burwood said:

KrissKross said:

TRADE DEALS, consist usually of stuff you need to help your lives. Please add to the list:

I/WE NEED OR WOULD LIKE FROM EUROPE:

1/ Wine

I/WE NEED OR WOULD LIKE FROM OUTSIDE EUROPE:

1/ New Mobile Phone
2/ New Socks and pants

British wine is ok. Nice after the second bottle.

Fair point, I was actually trying to be fair.

So the remainders cannot suggest anything we need?

[anonymous-user]

KrissKross said:

Burwood said:

KrissKross said:

TRADE DEALS, consist usually of stuff you need to help your lives. Please add to the list:

I/WE NEED OR WOULD LIKE FROM EUROPE:

1/ Wine

I/WE NEED OR WOULD LIKE FROM OUTSIDE EUROPE:

1/ New Mobile Phone
2/ New Socks and pants

British wine is ok. Nice after the second bottle.

Fair point, I was actually trying to be fair.

So the remainders cannot suggest anything we need?

We need to reduce our trade deficit.

[Murph7355]

Ghibli said:

We need to reduce our trade deficit.

That's been working pretty well over the last 44yrs

[anonymous-user]

Murph7355 said:

Ghibli said:

We need to reduce our trade deficit.

That's been working pretty well over the last 44yrs

Apparently it's going to work even better when we have more cheap stuff to buy from around the world.

We are going to need to buy lots and lots to get a good deal with these countries, unless they only want to buy from us.

[B'stard Child]

Coolbanana said:

mx5nut said:

Boris Johnson would 'rather stay in' the EU than accept a soft Brexit

Farage calling for a second ref, Boris having doubts about the dream coming true.

The cracks are starting to show.

Always very predicable. No need for 273 fake or ridiculous reasons to Leave the EU to see it would be a daft.

I'll bite - did you have any reasons to vote leave or was everything on your pros and cons list on the remain side?

Coolbanana said:

Boris is right, of course. Leaving the EU is a gamble that can only ever be remotely beneficial to the UK in terms of being better off than it is now if it was a so-called 'hard brexit'.

The idea being to demonstrate that better deals can be made with the ROW and that the EU would offer a decent Trade deal of its own with the UK - "because it needs to". I don't buy into it, I think a hard brexit will downsize the UK hugely, but that is the risk and gamble Brexiteers voted for.

A 'soft brexit' that aligns itself to EU Rules in order to function at all is simply EU-Lite. Why have EU-Lite with no voice or all benefits of membership when you can have full-fat with special extras - as the UK enjoyed thanks to a skilled negotiation Team in the past.

So dumb. Anyway, Farage and now Boris. As you say, the cracks are widening and Brexit in its current mandate is unravelling. They are warming the voters up for either a new mandate for a definite hard brexit or to remain after all in it seems. The half-way house the UK is heading for now isn't working for the hard-liners and it while it will placate many Remainers I think, it will prove to be an embarrassment down the line compared to simply staying in.

We will stil get a Brexit - the hard and soft terminology is meaningless

[Coolbanana]

B'stard Child said:

We will stil get a Brexit - the hard and soft terminology is meaningless

Is it really though? From someone who claims to have had 273 reasons to Leave, you find the difference between the so-called 'hard' and 'soft' Brexits to be "meaningless"? No major difference for you? Interesting.

Why bother with a Pro's and Con's List at all then if all you care about is a 'Brexit, any Brexit will do' approach? You just want away from the horrible EU Oppressor Empire Thingy and that is all?

A 'soft' Brexit aligning you to much the same as we have now - a Norway or Canada-type solution - is A-OK so long as it means you have technically 'Left'?

Or a 'hard' Brexit is A-OK because you have Faith in the Great Gamble of Great Britain?

Both equally good for you? Ok.

You wanted to know about my 'List'? Prior to the Referendum, I enjoyed the benefits of being in the EU but hadn't put a huge effort into understanding the Relationship over the past 40 years much. That changed. I took an interest in learning about its History, what it has achieved, how it has affected the UK. I learnt about how it is Represented by each Member, how they elect Democratically the Leaders. I looked at their Vision, weighed their likelihood of succeeding.

I established a Pro's and Con's List - nothing written down, I could do it in my head - of the Major aspects that influence me; Immigration, Legislation, Sovereignty, the 4 Freedoms...I debated the overall effects of each, the 'give and take' etc.

I came to a conclusion. I would like to Remain. I then discussed it with Family (my Dad, who hasn't lived in the UK for over 30 years is a Leaver, bless his socks), friends, colleagues, people I met randomly. I read and listened to the Campaigns for either side (both very badly run, utterly disgraceful and no less demeaning for the UK than Trump is for the USA).

The conclusion I came to earlier was unchanged.

That's how I arrived at my decision. I didn't have a list that included: Blue Passports! Hate that Nasty Dictator, Juncker! Think the Fishing Industry is being screwed over! (while ignoring everything else...) Blue Passports! Prefer Skegness to Benidorm Anyway! Europe is Foreign! Don't like the Polish man down the road! Too many Foreigners in the Hospitals! Don't want the Euro! Scared of an EU Army idea cos they might invade and the Americans might not save us again! £250 million quids for the NHS! Boris is my Hero! Cameron is too Snowflakey! Gove is so honest! Farage, you God, you!

Haha, I could go on, I can see how easy it is to get to 273...

Only having fun mate, please take the above in jest, I'm sure you had many genuinely good reasons applicable to you and yours

On another note...see the Leaver's Leader ( not their God ) is bringing up the infamous Bus 'that never swayed anyone because everyone knew it wasn't true and it didn't influence any votes, at least significantly' again. Wonder who he is appealing to if it is 'obvious' that it won't be believed as wholly true by a sizable Voting sector? Brexit is fun.

[KrissKross]

Ghibli said:

KrissKross said:

Burwood said:

KrissKross said:

TRADE DEALS, consist usually of stuff you need to help your lives. Please add to the list:

I/WE NEED OR WOULD LIKE FROM EUROPE:

1/ Wine

I/WE NEED OR WOULD LIKE FROM OUTSIDE EUROPE:

1/ New Mobile Phone
2/ New Socks and pants

British wine is ok. Nice after the second bottle.

Fair point, I was actually trying to be fair.

So the remainders cannot suggest anything we need?

We need to reduce our trade deficit.

So when you come home after work at night, that's the only thing you and the family talk about.

Does your family chats go "dad can I/we please reduce the trade deficit this month"

Really helps the average Jo.

[KrissKross]

Ghibli said:

We are going to need to buy lots and lots to get a good deal with these countries, unless they only want to buy from us.

Could you list anything we need to buy?

[anonymous-user]

KrissKross said:

Ghibli said:

We are going to need to buy lots and lots to get a good deal with these countries, unless they only want to buy from us.

Could you list anything we need to buy?

Could you list anything that we need to sell to buy all the things we buy.

We already buy more than we sell. The challenge will be making it balance, we can't do it now and leaving the EU doesn't automatically mean we will be able to when we have left.

To get a good deal we need to offer to buy from the rest of the world, we also need to make sure that we don't buy so much cheap stuff that we don't bother producing anything of our own.

We are starting to see that financial service is what we need to sell. If other countries don't want them, we are stuffed.

[crankedup]

My vote to leave the eu was born from just a couple of major
issues which I strongly disagreed with

1 immigration, the wave of cheap labour supppressing our workman’s wages.
2 The future of travel indicated by the eu and how that might affect the u.k.

[mx5nut]

crankedup said:

My vote to leave the eu was born from just a couple of major
issues which I strongly disagreed with

1 immigration, the wave of cheap labour supppressing our workman’s wages.

Any particular industry or trade this particularly concerned you about?

crankedup said:

2 The future of travel indicated by the eu and how that might affect the u.k.

Actual plans or the Project Fear nonsense about Turkey joining and leading a fearsome EU army on a rampage?

[KrissKross]

Ghibli said:

KrissKross said:

Ghibli said:

We are going to need to buy lots and lots to get a good deal with these countries, unless they only want to buy from us.

Could you list anything we need to buy?

Could you list anything that we need to sell to buy all the things we buy.

We already buy more than we sell. The challenge will be making it balance, we can't do it now and leaving the EU doesn't automatically mean we will be able to when we have left.

To get a good deal we need to offer to buy from the rest of the world, we also need to make sure that we don't buy so much cheap stuff that we don't bother producing anything of our own.

We are starting to see that financial service is what we need to sell. If other countries don't want them, we are stuffed.

So you are unable to identify one thing we need?

[anonymous-user]

KrissKross said:

So you are unable to identify one thing we need?

Correct, I am unable to identify one thing that we need and can't already get.

[KrissKross]

Ghibli said:

KrissKross said:

So you are unable to identify one thing we need?

Correct, I am unable to identify one thing that we need and can't already get.

So clearly you are at the very bottom of the pile when understanding trade.

[anonymous-user]

KrissKross said:

Ghibli said:

KrissKross said:

So you are unable to identify one thing we need?

Correct, I am unable to identify one thing that we need and can't already get.

So clearly you are at the very bottom of the pile when understanding trade.

Fill your boots and explain how trade works.

[KrissKross]

Ghibli said:

KrissKross said:

Ghibli said:

KrissKross said:

So you are unable to identify one thing we need?

Correct, I am unable to identify one thing that we need and can't already get.

So clearly you are at the very bottom of the pile when understanding trade.

Fill your boots and explain how trade works.

Ok, I will have a go, let's use an example of something I am looking to purchase at the moment.

I was going to upgrade my business phone account to Galaxy S8 handsets, however, the S9 comes out in a month so I might now wait.

I am not fussed about an Apple phone or other brands to the Samsung is the one I will purchase.

I haven't yet found any Greek, Polish or African handsets that I like the look of, maybe in a few years that might change?

Does this example help you?

[Coolbanana]

KrissKross said:

...

I was going to upgrade my business phone account to Galaxy S8 handsets, however, the S9 comes out in a month so I might now wait.

...

Does this example help you?

I have the S8+; very nice it is so I too shall be getting the S9.

I won't buy it from any UK or EU source however, I will be getting it from Hong Kong and pay considerably less. So...does this mean that if the UK did a Trade deal with China outside of the EU, it could guarantee a better deal and mean I could get the handset as cheap in the UK as getting it in from Hong Kong would be? Or would that Trade deal have to be with South Korea? How do we know it will be better than exists already? I mean, given that the EU is China's biggest Trading Partner?

Getting a Trade deal shouldn't be too difficult for Liam. However, getting one that is actually better for the UK overall is slightly trickier...or does that not actually matter? Because Blue Passports?

Hey, good for Liam and the UK if a better deal is reached. Hope it is.

[Dr Jekyll]

Coolbanana said:

I have the S8+; very nice it is so I too shall be getting the S9.

I won't buy it from any UK or EU source however, I will be getting it from Hong Kong and pay considerably less. So...does this mean that if the UK did a Trade deal with China outside of the EU, it could guarantee a better deal and mean I could get the handset as cheap in the UK as getting it in from Hong Kong would be? Or would that Trade deal have to be with South Korea? How do we know it will be better than exists already? I mean, given that the EU is China's biggest Trading Partner?

Given that the EU doesn't have a trade deal with China at all it shouldn't be difficult.