Incident Croydon tram
Discussion
dudleybloke said:
That bloke who crashed the land rover into the train a few years ago got prosecuted for the accident despite having a "micro-sleep".
Surely the difference is the landrover guy had been starving himslef of sleep so what happened was likely. In the tram incident the driver did no different to normal, hence it's the same catergory as sneezing and crashing - involuntary.saaby93 said:
dudleybloke said:
That bloke who crashed the land rover into the train a few years ago got prosecuted for the accident despite having a "micro-sleep".
Surely the difference is the landrover guy had been starving himslef of sleep so what happened was likely. In the tram incident the driver did no different to normal, hence it's the same catergory as sneezing and crashing - involuntary.This incident must bring into consideration the viability of the tram service and tram system.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2...
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2...
MXRod said:
Just been watching a program about the Chanel Tunnel , in it some time is spent in the cab with the drivers of the Shuttle .
As part of the safety features , the driver is required to tap a foot peddle every few seconds to show they are alert , if this is not done , the train stops .
Am I right in reading the unions are opposed to this sort of system , if so they should get their sandwiches wrapped in a road map and shown the door, and people who would accept this system put in the cab .
I haven’t trawled through the whole thread , Is the driver still driving trams or even his car ? as the findings suggest he may have dropped off while at the at the controls , heaven forbid it happens whilst he is driving home during the school run
No-ASLEF are not opposed to in cab safety systems that are effective, this type of vigilance system being one of them and indeed one already mandated for trains running on the mainline network in the UK. It has to be operational for a train to enter service, otherwise it is subjected to a severe speed restriction or a second driver in the cab is necessary.As part of the safety features , the driver is required to tap a foot peddle every few seconds to show they are alert , if this is not done , the train stops .
Am I right in reading the unions are opposed to this sort of system , if so they should get their sandwiches wrapped in a road map and shown the door, and people who would accept this system put in the cab .
I haven’t trawled through the whole thread , Is the driver still driving trams or even his car ? as the findings suggest he may have dropped off while at the at the controls , heaven forbid it happens whilst he is driving home during the school run
From what I understand the tram system lacks a lot of the basic safety systems such as this which are compulsory on the mainline train network-trams lag behind dramatically.
Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good union bashing, though.
itcaptainslow said:
No-ASLEF are not opposed to in cab safety systems that are effective, this type of vigilance system being one of them and indeed one already mandated for trains running on the mainline network in the UK. It has to be operational for a train to enter service, otherwise it is subjected to a severe speed restriction or a second driver in the cab is necessary.
From what I understand the tram system lacks a lot of the basic safety systems such as this which are compulsory on the mainline train network-trams lag behind dramatically.
Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good union bashing, though.
Surely, it's not really a question of tram safety 'lagging behind' mainline trains ? - they are fundamentally different types of operation, subject to different legislation. We probably don't want, or need, some of the mainline practices adopted on light rail systems.From what I understand the tram system lacks a lot of the basic safety systems such as this which are compulsory on the mainline train network-trams lag behind dramatically.
Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good union bashing, though.
Robertj21a said:
itcaptainslow said:
No-ASLEF are not opposed to in cab safety systems that are effective, this type of vigilance system being one of them and indeed one already mandated for trains running on the mainline network in the UK. It has to be operational for a train to enter service, otherwise it is subjected to a severe speed restriction or a second driver in the cab is necessary.
From what I understand the tram system lacks a lot of the basic safety systems such as this which are compulsory on the mainline train network-trams lag behind dramatically.
Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good union bashing, though.
Surely, it's not really a question of tram safety 'lagging behind' mainline trains ? - they are fundamentally different types of operation, subject to different legislation. We probably don't want, or need, some of the mainline practices adopted on light rail systems.From what I understand the tram system lacks a lot of the basic safety systems such as this which are compulsory on the mainline train network-trams lag behind dramatically.
Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good union bashing, though.
Edited by itcaptainslow on Saturday 2nd November 10:44
Robertj21a said:
Surely, it's not really a question of tram safety 'lagging behind' mainline trains ? - they are fundamentally different types of operation, subject to different legislation. We probably don't want, or need, some of the mainline practices adopted on light rail systems.
I think the Croydon crash suggests we do itcaptainslow said:
Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good union bashing, though.
Why did they vote to go on strike a couple of years back when the system used in road haulage cabs to prevent microsleeps was being rolled out?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.croydonadvertiser...
The system simply beeps and says microsleepdetected when it senses the drivers nodding off
Demo of it on the Croydon tram here (20 seconds in)
https://youtu.be/CJSI8BjVB20
Footage was released of another tram crash last month which caused injuries and it showed the tram driver was 100% at fault, if this happened in the UK TFL wouldn't ever release in cab footage.
https://youtu.be/sW3WCAOdgfQ
If you read your own link you’d see that the union wants see an automatic braking system used on the trams instead of something that simply shakes the seat to wake the driver. Aslef wants a better, far safer system introduced rather than a relatively simple alarm system.
There are issues with some drivers experiencing headaches and whatnot with this system so should they be ignored or in true PH fashion, told to get another job?
With this system, what happens if the driver doesn’t respond to an alarm or seat shake? Nothing! The tram carries on until the driver responds. It won’t prevent another accident happening, it merely records that an alarm went off. On trains, you go past a red, the train stops dead. Driver is off the train and stood down pending investigation. On tubes with the newer signalling system, if you go past the proscribed speed limit, the train also stops dead and an uncomfortable conversation awaits you.
I know union bashing is popular on PH and sometimes with good reason but in this case, the unions want a better, safer system that benefits both passengers and staff rather than adapting something from the haulage industry and making out it’s sufficient.
There are issues with some drivers experiencing headaches and whatnot with this system so should they be ignored or in true PH fashion, told to get another job?
With this system, what happens if the driver doesn’t respond to an alarm or seat shake? Nothing! The tram carries on until the driver responds. It won’t prevent another accident happening, it merely records that an alarm went off. On trains, you go past a red, the train stops dead. Driver is off the train and stood down pending investigation. On tubes with the newer signalling system, if you go past the proscribed speed limit, the train also stops dead and an uncomfortable conversation awaits you.
I know union bashing is popular on PH and sometimes with good reason but in this case, the unions want a better, safer system that benefits both passengers and staff rather than adapting something from the haulage industry and making out it’s sufficient.
valiant said:
If you read your own link you’d see that the union wants see an automatic braking system used on the trams instead of something that simply shakes the seat to wake the driver. Aslef wants a better, far safer system introduced rather than a relatively simple alarm system.
There are issues with some drivers experiencing headaches and whatnot with this system so should they be ignored or in true PH fashion, told to get another job?
With this system, what happens if the driver doesn’t respond to an alarm or seat shake? Nothing! The tram carries on until the driver responds. It won’t prevent another accident happening, it merely records that an alarm went off. On trains, you go past a red, the train stops dead. Driver is off the train and stood down pending investigation. On tubes with the newer signalling system, if you go past the proscribed speed limit, the train also stops dead and an uncomfortable conversation awaits you.
I know union bashing is popular on PH and sometimes with good reason but in this case, the unions want a better, safer system that benefits both passengers and staff rather than adapting something from the haulage industry and making out it’s sufficient.
I can’t really add any more to this, nailed it There are issues with some drivers experiencing headaches and whatnot with this system so should they be ignored or in true PH fashion, told to get another job?
With this system, what happens if the driver doesn’t respond to an alarm or seat shake? Nothing! The tram carries on until the driver responds. It won’t prevent another accident happening, it merely records that an alarm went off. On trains, you go past a red, the train stops dead. Driver is off the train and stood down pending investigation. On tubes with the newer signalling system, if you go past the proscribed speed limit, the train also stops dead and an uncomfortable conversation awaits you.
I know union bashing is popular on PH and sometimes with good reason but in this case, the unions want a better, safer system that benefits both passengers and staff rather than adapting something from the haulage industry and making out it’s sufficient.
eccles said:
saaby93 said:
dudleybloke said:
That bloke who crashed the land rover into the train a few years ago got prosecuted for the accident despite having a "micro-sleep".
Surely the difference is the landrover guy had been starving himslef of sleep so what happened was likely. In the tram incident the driver did no different to normal, hence it's the same catergory as sneezing and crashing - involuntary.There's one sign that changes the speed limit for the bend
Temporary micro sleep at that point and you've missed it.
The prosecutors realised it was unintentional hence no chance of prosecution.
As that's a natural human failing surely there could do with some sort of automatic braking system if a tram goes past that point at 4x the speed limit
itcaptainslow said:
valiant said:
If you read your own link you’d see that the union wants see an automatic braking system used on the trams instead of something that simply shakes the seat to wake the driver. Aslef wants a better, far safer system introduced rather than a relatively simple alarm system.
There are issues with some drivers experiencing headaches and whatnot with this system so should they be ignored or in true PH fashion, told to get another job?
With this system, what happens if the driver doesn’t respond to an alarm or seat shake? Nothing! The tram carries on until the driver responds. It won’t prevent another accident happening, it merely records that an alarm went off. On trains, you go past a red, the train stops dead. Driver is off the train and stood down pending investigation. On tubes with the newer signalling system, if you go past the proscribed speed limit, the train also stops dead and an uncomfortable conversation awaits you.
I know union bashing is popular on PH and sometimes with good reason but in this case, the unions want a better, safer system that benefits both passengers and staff rather than adapting something from the haulage industry and making out it’s sufficient.
I can’t really add any more to this, nailed it There are issues with some drivers experiencing headaches and whatnot with this system so should they be ignored or in true PH fashion, told to get another job?
With this system, what happens if the driver doesn’t respond to an alarm or seat shake? Nothing! The tram carries on until the driver responds. It won’t prevent another accident happening, it merely records that an alarm went off. On trains, you go past a red, the train stops dead. Driver is off the train and stood down pending investigation. On tubes with the newer signalling system, if you go past the proscribed speed limit, the train also stops dead and an uncomfortable conversation awaits you.
I know union bashing is popular on PH and sometimes with good reason but in this case, the unions want a better, safer system that benefits both passengers and staff rather than adapting something from the haulage industry and making out it’s sufficient.
saaby93 said:
eccles said:
saaby93 said:
dudleybloke said:
That bloke who crashed the land rover into the train a few years ago got prosecuted for the accident despite having a "micro-sleep".
Surely the difference is the landrover guy had been starving himslef of sleep so what happened was likely. In the tram incident the driver did no different to normal, hence it's the same catergory as sneezing and crashing - involuntary.There's one sign that changes the speed limit for the bend
Temporary micro sleep at that point and you've missed it.
The prosecutors realised it was unintentional hence no chance of prosecution.
As that's a natural human failing surely there could do with some sort of automatic braking system if a tram goes past that point at 4x the speed limit
"When it came off the tracks, before dawn and in heavy rain, the tram was travelling at almost four times the line's speed limit."
It doesn't say whether it's the speed limit for the straight bit or the bend, but that level of excess speed would indicate no attempt to slow down at all, unless of course he was going even faster before. Either way it doesn't paint a good picture of the driver.
eccles said:
A quote from the BBC story...
"When it came off the tracks, before dawn and in heavy rain, the tram was travelling at almost four times the line's speed limit."
It doesn't say whether it's the speed limit for the straight bit or the bend, but that level of excess speed would indicate no attempt to slow down at all, unless of course he was going even faster before. Either way it doesn't paint a good picture of the driver.
At a guess, I’d say it’s a fair bet the driver was asleep. There have been several YouTube uploads showing the drivers on that route, flat asleep. "When it came off the tracks, before dawn and in heavy rain, the tram was travelling at almost four times the line's speed limit."
It doesn't say whether it's the speed limit for the straight bit or the bend, but that level of excess speed would indicate no attempt to slow down at all, unless of course he was going even faster before. Either way it doesn't paint a good picture of the driver.
Ed. said:
itcaptainslow said:
valiant said:
If you read your own link you’d see that the union wants see an automatic braking system used on the trams instead of something that simply shakes the seat to wake the driver. Aslef wants a better, far safer system introduced rather than a relatively simple alarm system.
There are issues with some drivers experiencing headaches and whatnot with this system so should they be ignored or in true PH fashion, told to get another job?
With this system, what happens if the driver doesn’t respond to an alarm or seat shake? Nothing! The tram carries on until the driver responds. It won’t prevent another accident happening, it merely records that an alarm went off. On trains, you go past a red, the train stops dead. Driver is off the train and stood down pending investigation. On tubes with the newer signalling system, if you go past the proscribed speed limit, the train also stops dead and an uncomfortable conversation awaits you.
I know union bashing is popular on PH and sometimes with good reason but in this case, the unions want a better, safer system that benefits both passengers and staff rather than adapting something from the haulage industry and making out it’s sufficient.
I can’t really add any more to this, nailed it There are issues with some drivers experiencing headaches and whatnot with this system so should they be ignored or in true PH fashion, told to get another job?
With this system, what happens if the driver doesn’t respond to an alarm or seat shake? Nothing! The tram carries on until the driver responds. It won’t prevent another accident happening, it merely records that an alarm went off. On trains, you go past a red, the train stops dead. Driver is off the train and stood down pending investigation. On tubes with the newer signalling system, if you go past the proscribed speed limit, the train also stops dead and an uncomfortable conversation awaits you.
I know union bashing is popular on PH and sometimes with good reason but in this case, the unions want a better, safer system that benefits both passengers and staff rather than adapting something from the haulage industry and making out it’s sufficient.
oobster said:
PF62 said:
oobster said:
PF62 said:
And the driver won't be prosecuted even though they killed seven and seriously injured fifty - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50212531
Do you believe the driver should be prosecuted? my dad was babysitter and work colleague to the deceased .
that this is not going to court is a travesty and twists the knife .
the death has had a massive impact on my family and to wait 3 years for this news . i am speechless.
An update on this as of yesterday;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65949...
Doesn’t sit easy with me.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65949...
Doesn’t sit easy with me.
scenario8 said:
An update on this as of yesterday;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65949...
Doesn’t sit easy with me.
Nor me, and why doesn’t the tram have built in safety devices to restrict the speed on those sections.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65949...
Doesn’t sit easy with me.
Just hope the jury can sleep soundly is all I can say.
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