Incident Croydon tram

[mizx]

truck71 said:

Looking at the aerial picture it looks like the tram had come out of the tunnel and was going to take the left turn when it toppled over. Thing is it's lying on it's left side meaning it was perhaps heading right on the single track but that's East isn't it?

Going left seems to be correct, I found a link to this on another forum, showing that section of track in the same direction https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=12m56s

Surprising just how tight it looks, I know nothing about driving rail vehicles or track design besides seeing a few people play train sims , you slow gradually and well in advance of the limit change as that video seems to show. Comment on the other forum suggests that's a pretty drastic speed limit drop for a tram system. The turn doesn't look very far after the tunnel exit!

Hopefully there's no overreaction and something like graduated speed reductions are put in place? I think these things are great and we should have more of them where there's space. I've only ever been on one in Cologne, and seen them in Prague last week. It is disconcerting being stood right by them when they take tight turns on the road rails, I know they can skip out as in the car crash above, but they look incredibly stable at the correct speed.

Edited by mizx on Wednesday 9th November 20:46

[untakenname]

Wondered what was up with the trams this morning as there was loads of people waiting for them at 7:30am, hope no one I know has been injured.

Saw this today at Elmers End, think tfl may have to refresh the branding somewhat

[don'tbesilly]

truck71 said:

don'tbesilly said:

truck71 said:

Charged with manslaughter would suggest something pretty fundamental regards the driver's actions.

Weird, I thought reports were that the driver had blacked out?

Btp link above says arrested on suspicion of manslaughter, I misquoted saying charged which is incorrect.

Even suspicion, seems strange.

Maybe he'd had a few drinks the night before and blew positive on a breath test?

Who knows?

[Hugo a Gogo]

Einion Yrth said:

jbswagger said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

tram should have a 'dead man's handle' system, so a driver passing out/falling asleep should end in a stopped tram

On another forum people have mentioned that trams don't have a dead mans handle.

Edited by jbswagger on Wednesday 9th November 19:30

And Hugo a Gogo has said, correctly in my view, that they should.

reading wiki, Croydon has two kinds of trams, one sort (bombardier) definitely do have them

[truck71]

don'tbesilly said:

Even suspicion, seems strange.

Maybe he'd had a few drinks the night before and blew positive on a breath test?

Who knows?

Drink or phone as a speculative guess.

[scenario8]

untakenname said:

Wondered what was up with the trams this morning as there was loads of people waiting for them at 7:30am, hope no one I know has been injured.

Saw this today at Elmers End, think tfl may have to refresh the branding somewhat

The message is "Looking out for trams won't hurt you". Seems a fair message for pedestrians, cyclists and motorists to bear in mind. Other shared space users are unlikely to come off best from a coming together with a forty odd tonne tram.

[paolow]

truck71 said:

Drink or phone as a speculative guess.

Lets not get carried away. If you were driving and hit and killed someone - even though potentially completely innocent - you would be arrested so you could be interviewed about the matter. No ifs, no buts.
Same situation is here. He was driving. Something happened. People died.
If it ever does go to court the initial interview will be crucial. Leaving it a while as though it were a plane crash and then deciding to interview at a much later date who might be involved is not as effective.
Were he drunk there is a separate offence specificaly for this (though I forget the wording) and he would have been tested for, and arrested for this at a very early stage. Not least because he couldnt be spoken to about what happened if he wasnt sober.

[saaby93]

mizx said:

oing left seems to be correct, I found a link to this on another forum, showing that section of track in the same direction https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=12m56s

Surprising just how tight it looks,

Is there really just one 20 diamond just before the bend to let you know its a 20km limit - why cant the Beeb say 20km rather than having to translate it to 12mph
One witness reported hearing brakes much louder than a car before hearing the crash
Sudden panic braking on seeing the 20?

[Vipers]

saaby93 said:

mizx said:

oing left seems to be correct, I found a link to this on another forum, showing that section of track in the same direction https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=12m56s

Surprising just how tight it looks,

Is there really just one 20 diamond just before the bend to let you know its a 20km limit - why cant the Beeb say 20km rather than having to translate it to 12mph
One witness reported hearing brakes much louder than a car before hearing the crash
Sudden panic braking on seeing the 20?

IF it is 20k, why? We drive in MPH, all road signs are in MPH, so why 20 KPH for trains, or is it actually MPH.

[Eng274]

After some quick internet searching, the Bombardier CR4000 does have a driver safety device, which requires the driver to have their hand on the power/brake controller at all times.

The Stadler Variobahn is a very similar design, and is loosely related to te CR4000 so I should think the safety systems were broadly identical.

If the driver removes their hand, they have three seconds to restore it before the brakes apply. I guess the RAIB report will confirm via the data recorder (black box) what happened at the time.

Edited by Eng274 on Wednesday 9th November 23:15

[Stedman]

mizx said:

oing left seems to be correct, I found a link to this on another forum, showing that section of track in the same direction https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=12m56s

Surprising just how tight it looks, I know nothing about driving rail vehicles or track design besides seeing a few people play train sims , you slow gradually and well in advance of the limit change as that video seems to show. Comment on the other forum suggests that's a pretty drastic speed limit drop for a tram system. The turn doesn't look very far after the tunnel exit!

Hopefully there's no overreaction and something like graduated speed reductions are put in place? I think these things are great and we should have more of them where there's space. I've only ever been on one in Cologne, and seen them in Prague last week. It is disconcerting being stood right by them when they take tight turns on the road rails, I know they can skip out as in the car crash above, but they look incredibly stable at the correct speed.

Edited by mizx on Wednesday 9th November 20:46

I wonder if the weather conditions played a part, i.e - rain and leaf fall. The tram tracks from Beckenham Jnc are often very very black and the trains find it difficult to slow down and stop into Birkbeck.

Edited by Stedman on Wednesday 9th November 23:56

Edited by Stedman on Thursday 10th November 09:30

[Andyjc86]

George111 said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

tram should have a 'dead man's handle' system, so a driver passing out/falling asleep should end in a stopped tram

True.

But this is also not the 1960's, why not have a couple of computers on board which know the max speed of each part of the track and apply brakes if tram is going too fast ? The computer in our TVs has the power to save the tram passengers in this situation, so why are they not fitted ? It's not very difficult, and I speak as somebody who has experience of embedded systems design.

I left the railways 6 years ago now. When I left, I was working on the design team for the LUL Victoria line upgrade.

Our system ran itself (nearly- it wasn't finished at the time). Given the opportunity we could have comfortably got rid of the drivers.

So it can be done, but it costs a hell of a lot.

[MarshPhantom]

At least 7 dead.

[BlackLabel]

LBC reporting that the tram was doing 40 mph when the limit was 12 mph.

The newspapers are speculating that the driver may have fallen asleep.

[KAgantua]

crazy the amount of people that died.
the trams are so slow and light, didn't think it was possible
plus it wasn't a head on or anything

rip

[Biker 1]

KAgantua said:

crazy the amount of people that died.
the trams are so slow and light, didn't think it was possible
plus it wasn't a head on or anything

rip

I shudder to think what the traumatic injuries were. Emergency service rescue people must be hard as nails - I hope they get proper counselling after an event like this....

RIP

[Eric Mc]

BlackLabel said:

LBC reporting that the tram was doing 40 mph when the limit was 12 mph.

The newspapers are speculating that the driver may have fallen asleep.

I hope the driver hadn't stayed up all night to watch the US election. I know some people who did.

[MarshPhantom]

KAgantua said:

crazy the amount of people that died.
the trams are so slow and light, didn't think it was possible
plus it wasn't a head on or anything

rip

Shocking isn't it.

[MarshPhantom]

Eric Mc said:

BlackLabel said:

LBC reporting that the tram was doing 40 mph when the limit was 12 mph.

The newspapers are speculating that the driver may have fallen asleep.

I hope the driver hadn't stayed up all night to watch the US election. I know some people who did.

Hard to believe the tram would be able to go that fast if the driver was out of it.

[red_slr]

I find it hard to understand in this day and age why they cant have speed limiters on such sensitive vehicles. I mean if a truck from 1975 can be limited to 56 I am sure they can make a tram Vmax at any limit they want at any given time / location. Crazy IMHO.