Incident Croydon tram

[12TS]

You can very easily apply speed limiters. It's just applying them in the right place that's more difficult, and that's where signalling comes in.

It's common practice in tram design not signal them - many European systems are like this, also Manchester and Nottingham.

[saaby93]

Vipers said:

saaby93 said:

mizx said:

oing left seems to be correct, I found a link to this on another forum, showing that section of track in the same direction https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=12m56s

Surprising just how tight it looks,

Is there really just one 20 diamond just before the bend to let you know its a 20km limit - why cant the Beeb say 20km rather than having to translate it to 12mph
One witness reported hearing brakes much louder than a car before hearing the crash
Sudden panic braking on seeing the 20?

IF it is 20k, why? We drive in MPH, all road signs are in MPH, so why 20 KPH for trains, or is it actually MPH.

Yes maybe it is 20mph and the reports are all wrong - but is there really only that single diamond sign - its easy enough to miss - sounds like SPADS all over again

[Rick101]

Unless it was a temporary restriction, which I've no reason to think it is, the driver would have known the limit.
Having a single sign is not really an issue just as having a single 40 sign isn't on the road.

[Jimmyarm]

12TS said:

You can very easily apply speed limiters. It's just applying them in the right place that's more difficult, and that's where signalling comes in.

It's common practice in tram design not signal them - many European systems are like this, also Manchester and Nottingham.

Why is applying them in the right place difficult ?

I'm not a tram designer but given GPS, the fact the tracks don't move and it would be fairly trivial for a piece of software to work out where the tram was on the track, it seems there are a myriad of fairly simple solutions to applying varying limits. There should even be a failsafe that is blinking and blaring away (and autobraking) when the tram is approaching a corner/turn at a greater speed than is 'safe'.

IMO it just comes down to money, which is quite frankly unacceptable.

[Rick101]

Somewhat ironic I am just reading member Reg Local's book on advanced driving and he talks about the number of people killed every single day on the roads.
He compares it with the railways which we expect to be safe. As posted above a few people have died so the blank cheque book should come out to stop it ever happening again.

I am surprised trams don't have a failsafe mode and I don't like putting a price on life but I doubt this one incident would warrant it.

From his book the 2014 figures.
317 REPORTABLE accidents per day
263 minor injury per day
50 serious live changing injuries per day
4 fatalities every day

Edited by Rick101 on Thursday 10th November 11:26

[saaby93]

Rick101 said:

Somewhat ironic I am just reading member Reg Local's book on advanced driving and he talks about the number of people killed every single day on the roads.
He compares it with the railways which we expect to be safe. As posted above a few people have died so the blank cheque book should come out to stop it ever happening again.

I am surprised trams don't have a failsafe mode and I don't like putting a price on life but I doubt this one incident would warrant it.

From his book the 2014 figures.
317 REPORTABLE accidents per day
263 minor injury per day
50 serious live changing injuries per day
4 fatalities every day

If thats right, thats almost the same as the number on the roads

[Murph7355]

saaby93 said:

If thats right, thats almost the same as the number on the roads

Isn't he saying those are the road figures...and that rail numbers are minor in comparison.

?

[saaby93]

Murph7355 said:

Isn't he saying those are the road figures...and that rail numbers are minor in comparison.

?

Dunno
2014 1775 deaths on road /365 = 4.85
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_Road_Casual...

[MarshPhantom]

saaby93 said:

Rick101 said:

Somewhat ironic I am just reading member Reg Local's book on advanced driving and he talks about the number of people killed every single day on the roads.
He compares it with the railways which we expect to be safe. As posted above a few people have died so the blank cheque book should come out to stop it ever happening again.

I am surprised trams don't have a failsafe mode and I don't like putting a price on life but I doubt this one incident would warrant it.

From his book the 2014 figures.
317 REPORTABLE accidents per day
263 minor injury per day
50 serious live changing injuries per day
4 fatalities every day

If thats right, thats almost the same as the number on the roads

Surely only because the number of trains and passengers is negligable compared with car and drivers, passengers pedestrians, cyclists, van and truck drivers, coaches etc.

[W124Bob]

These are the first passenger related deaths deaths involving any rail related vehicle since the crash near Penrith in 2007. The most common form of other passenger accident is platform related(not suicide) and the industry goes along to police proper train dispatch, third is level crossing saftey. I'm sure the investigating parties will quickly have an interim report, the full report may take longer. It usually becomes apparent very quickly what needs urgent attention and all rail related companies are very good at putting canges in place.

[br d]

I know it's speculation but if that Tram was doing 40 when it should have been 12 then it would have gone down very hard. That's a big, solid piece of stuff to be hitting the ground at that speed. Tragic stuff.

[12TS]

W124Bob said:

These are the first passenger related deaths deaths involving any rail related vehicle since the crash near Penrith in 2007. The most common form of other passenger accident is platform related(not suicide) and the industry goes along to police proper train dispatch, third is level crossing saftey. I'm sure the investigating parties will quickly have an interim report, the full report may take longer. It usually becomes apparent very quickly what needs urgent attention and all rail related companies are very good at putting canges in place.

Not to trivialise this accident in anyway, but there was only one death at Penrith. So these are the first passenger rail deaths in nine years.

Modern rolling stock is also very safe - the Pendalinos at Penrith were travelling at ~100mph when the accident happened - much faster than Croydon. It will be interesting why so many were killed in what is a relatively low speed accident - people standing, sudden deceleration, falling out of windows? The RAIB accident report will be have to make recommendations, I doubt it would go down the full signalling route, maybe some form of signal / speed protection system like TPWS?

[saaby93]

400 or so on rail including suicides
orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/19185/rail-safety-statistics-2014-15.pdf
How many road deaths are suicide?

[carinaman]

Jimmyarm said:

12TS said:

You can very easily apply speed limiters. It's just applying them in the right place that's more difficult, and that's where signalling comes in.

It's common practice in tram design not signal them - many European systems are like this, also Manchester and Nottingham.

Why is applying them in the right place difficult ?

I'm not a tram designer but given GPS, the fact the tracks don't move and it would be fairly trivial for a piece of software to work out where the tram was on the track, it seems there are a myriad of fairly simple solutions to applying varying limits. There should even be a failsafe that is blinking and blaring away (and autobraking) when the tram is approaching a corner/turn at a greater speed than is 'safe'.

IMO it just comes down to money, which is quite frankly unacceptable.

The Clarkson Top Gear test of the GTR Skyline R35 points out that the GPS SatNav knows when the car is on a circuit so enables features to be used, or electronic nannies to be switched off.

Trams using that stretch couldn't have a similar GPS SatNav that says 'Right we're on that nasty downhill section heading to East Croydon, followed by a tight angle bend - if speed is over 20Kmh apply brakes and alert Tram Controller HQ'?

A tram cannot have a feature available to us in car showrooms?

Edited by carinaman on Thursday 10th November 17:21

[MX51ROD]

I would be surprised if there were not CCTV cameras showing the view inside and outside the tram , this will give a good indication as to what went on prior to the derailment . It is likely the recordings have been reviewed , and that is why the driver has been charged with manslaughter

[Vipers]

So was it in fact a "Tram", looks like a "Train" on the news, or is if just a stretch where the "Tram" is off road for a while?

[12TS]

carinaman said:

The Clarkson Top Gear test of the GTR Skyline R35 points out that the GPS SatNav knows when the car is on a circuit so enables features to be used, or electronic nannies to be switched off.

Trams using that stretch couldn't have a similar GPS SatNav that says 'Right we're on that nasty downhill section heading to East Croydon, followed by a tight angle bend - if speed is over 20Kmh apply brakes and alert Tram Controller HQ'?

A tram cannot have a feature available to us in car showrooms?

Edited by carinaman on Thursday 10th November 17:21

Its not that simple. If you're going to use it as a safety system on a passenger railway then it has to work and fail safe.

There are lots of railway systems that could have prevented the accident, they're not all used in a tram application for various reasons, amongst which is cost. I'm sure there are lots of people who think that cost shouldn't come into it, but it does and it's an accepted part of legislation.

[Eric Mc]

They are trams. Trams run both on public road and through dedicated off-road routes. The Croydon Tramway system makes use of the old railway line that used to connect Croydon to Wimbledon. But it also runs on stretches of road too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramlink

[paolow]

MX51ROD said:

I would be surprised if there were not CCTV cameras showing the view inside and outside the tram , this will give a good indication as to what went on prior to the derailment . It is likely the recordings have been reviewed , and that is why the driver has been charged with manslaughter

Once again:

BBC said:

The 42-year-old driver, from Beckenham, has been released on police bail following his arrest on suspicion of manslaughter.

He's not been charged with anything

[Vipers]

Eric Mc said:

They are trams. Trams run both on public road and through dedicated off-road routes. The Croydon Tramway system makes use of the old railway line that used to connect Croydon to Wimbledon. But it also runs on stretches of road too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramlink

Thanks for the link. I remember trams in Croydon in the 50's when I were a lad, and trolley buses in Tooting.