Discussion
psi310398 said:
Helicopter123 said:
How many World Wars have we had since the Treaty of Paris?
Very droll.The right question, as you well know, is how many World Wars since 4th April, 1949 when the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) was established in Washington.
Surely even you can't imagine that the Warsaw Pact was quaking in its boots at the prospect of the EEC and then the EU?
Are you?
psi310398 said:
Very droll.The right question, as you well know, is how many World Wars since 4th April, 1949 when the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) was established in Washington.
Surely even you can't imagine that the Warsaw Pact was quaking in its boots at the prospect of the EEC and then the EU?
Mothersruin said:
It may sound somewhat dramatic, but I could see an EU Army moving into a member state who didn't fulfil their obligations and decided to do their own thing, all under the guise of stability etc...
Had Greece the courage of it's convictions when it all went tits up and they'd refused to accept the economic bail out conditions, reintroduced their own currency and written of the debts to the EU, I have no reservation that troops would have been sent in to secure institutions and arrest those deemed responsible.
Same if Italy did the same.
This the primary role of our armed forces is to defend our country. I want our armed forces to be answerable to our government and ultimately the electorate. Handing control to another entity is madness IMO.Had Greece the courage of it's convictions when it all went tits up and they'd refused to accept the economic bail out conditions, reintroduced their own currency and written of the debts to the EU, I have no reservation that troops would have been sent in to secure institutions and arrest those deemed responsible.
Same if Italy did the same.
Also I would not serve in an EU armed force.
Helicopter123 said:
I am happy to acknowledge the role of various international organisations in maintaining peace in Europe, including the ESCC/EEC/EU.
Are you?
No. The ESCC/EEC/EU has, if anything, played a part in exacerbating wars. Are you?
Look at what happened in Yugoslavia because of inter-MS wrangling. The Americans had to step in.
What use has the EU been to Ukraine?
How has the EU dealt with the cyber-attacks on the Baltic States?
98elise said:
This the primary role of our armed forces is to defend our country. I want our armed forces to be answerable to our government and ultimately the electorate. Handing control to another entity is madness IMO.
Also I would not serve in an EU armed force.
Like how we hand control of our armed forces to NATO or the UN or the Americans you mean?Also I would not serve in an EU armed force.
Ziplobb said:
Mothersruin said:
It may sound somewhat dramatic, but I could see an EU Army moving into a member state who didn't fulfil their obligations and decided to do their own thing, all under the guise of stability etc...
Had Greece the courage of it's convictions when it all went tits up and they'd refused to accept the economic bail out conditions, reintroduced their own currency and written of the debts to the EU, I have no reservation that troops would have been sent in to secure institutions and arrest those deemed responsible.
Same if Italy did the same.
nail, headHad Greece the courage of it's convictions when it all went tits up and they'd refused to accept the economic bail out conditions, reintroduced their own currency and written of the debts to the EU, I have no reservation that troops would have been sent in to secure institutions and arrest those deemed responsible.
Same if Italy did the same.
The menace of tyranny is rearing it's ugly head again, the EU is on the verge of becoming a full on dictatorship. Amazing how quiet the left is when this subject presents itself, especially the BBC.
Who is going to pay for this new EU army...? The majority can't even meet their 2% target now!
esxste said:
Warnings of an EU Army were used in Leave campaign materials, as a reason to leave.
Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
I don't care if they want an army. I care that we are not forced to be part of it.Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
We may choose to be (an example would be the naval operations combatting piracy down near Somalia) where it suits our interests. We may equally stand back if they do something stupid. The point is, we get to make that choice for ourselves, based on what is in our interests.
CrutyRammers said:
esxste said:
Warnings of an EU Army were used in Leave campaign materials, as a reason to leave.
Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
I don't care if they want an army. I care that we are not forced to be part of it.Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
We may choose to be (an example would be the naval operations combatting piracy down near Somalia) where it suits our interests. We may equally stand back if they do something stupid. The point is, we get to make that choice for ourselves, based on what is in our interests.
I wonder how safe Ireland feel with their veto over no Irish troops in an EU army (it was a necessary clause to get a positive vote in their second referendum).
Piha said:
Like how we hand control of our armed forces to NATO or the UN or the Americans you mean?
You think the US have control over our armed forces? Not without direct consent and only if the operation serves our interests.With the EU Army, NATO's reason for being is that we all look out for each other, as such NATO will come to the aid of the EU nations (those within NATO) if they're threatened by Russia, China or anyone else. So why do they think they need their own army if not to alienate the existing NATO members.
When the EU Army becomes an operational entity, the NATO EU countries will leave NATO, it is the only thing that makes an EU Army a requirement. Now, I wonder why they would want to do such a thing.
And lets not kid ourselves into thinking this is something that has fallen out of Brexit, this is something the EU has wanted and pushed for for quite some time. All as part of their "ever closer union".
If the EU Army is formed and they leave NATO (why stay if it's not required) I think there could be some dangerous times ahead, for one Russia will not be happy. Again, Brexit is not the catalyst for this.
Piha said:
98elise said:
This the primary role of our armed forces is to defend our country. I want our armed forces to be answerable to our government and ultimately the electorate. Handing control to another entity is madness IMO.
Also I would not serve in an EU armed force.
Like how we hand control of our armed forces to NATO or the UN or the Americans you mean?Also I would not serve in an EU armed force.
AshVX220 said:
Piha said:
Like how we hand control of our armed forces to NATO or the UN or the Americans you mean?
You think the US have control over our armed forces? Not without direct consent and only if the operation serves our interests.With the EU Army, NATO's reason for being is that we all look out for each other, as such NATO will come to the aid of the EU nations (those within NATO) if they're threatened by Russia, China or anyone else. So why do they think they need their own army if not to alienate the existing NATO members.
When the EU Army becomes an operational entity, the NATO EU countries will leave NATO, it is the only thing that makes an EU Army a requirement. Now, I wonder why they would want to do such a thing.
And lets not kid ourselves into thinking this is something that has fallen out of Brexit, this is something the EU has wanted and pushed for for quite some time. All as part of their "ever closer union".
If the EU Army is formed and they leave NATO (why stay if it's not required) I think there could be some dangerous times ahead, for one Russia will not be happy. Again, Brexit is not the catalyst for this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
Piha said:
Have you confirmed your claim with Stormin' Norm and his role in the first Gulf War?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
We were there as it the actions of Iraq against Kuwait were deemed by our leaders to be something we should counter. And as we were there as part of an allied force and Stormin' Norman was the Commander of the allied forces in theater of course he had control of our forces in that theater of operations. Exactly as I said above, with consent and for the joint good of what is considered our national interests.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
He didn't just start issuing orders to our forces without going through all the required hoops!!
Mothersruin said:
It may sound somewhat dramatic, but I could see an EU Army moving into a member state who didn't fulfil their obligations and decided to do their own thing, all under the guise of stability etc...
Had Greece the courage of it's convictions when it all went tits up and they'd refused to accept the economic bail out conditions, reintroduced their own currency and written of the debts to the EU, I have no reservation that troops would have been sent in to secure institutions and arrest those deemed responsible.
Same if Italy did the same.
Greece and Italy both being members of NATO would mean that would be an NATO Article 5 incident surely? I.e. no way it would ever happen.Had Greece the courage of it's convictions when it all went tits up and they'd refused to accept the economic bail out conditions, reintroduced their own currency and written of the debts to the EU, I have no reservation that troops would have been sent in to secure institutions and arrest those deemed responsible.
Same if Italy did the same.
AshVX220 said:
Piha said:
Have you confirmed your claim with Stormin' Norm and his role in the first Gulf War?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
We were there as it the actions of Iraq against Kuwait were deemed by our leaders to be something we should counter. And as we were there as part of an allied force and Stormin' Norman was the Commander of the allied forces in theater of course he had control of our forces in that theater of operations. Exactly as I said above, with consent and for the joint good of what is considered our national interests.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
He didn't just start issuing orders to our forces without going through all the required hoops!!
And does going to war on false evidence mean that our leaders clearly prove they shouldn't commit our troops to anything whatsoever?
Is the cunning EU army plan done away with our opt out? Or Irelands stance on EU wars?
Will we, or anybody else be forced to go and fight on the streets of Athens or Madrid as suggested earlier?
You haven't really thought about this have you? I doubt there will be any real EU army despite the wailings of PH Brexiteers!
RizzoTheRat said:
Greece and Italy both being members of NATO would mean that would be an NATO Article 5 incident surely? I.e. no way it would ever happen.
How long would EU members stay in NATO with the formation of an EU army,and what would be the results of countries, such as Greece and Italy following
Ireland's example of no troops in an EU army?
RizzoTheRat said:
Greece and Italy both being members of NATO would mean that would be an NATO Article 5 incident surely? I.e. no way it would ever happen.
Are you certain? ISTR that Greece and Turkey are both NATO members and have perilously close to firing things at each other and tensions are particularly high at the moment, the last time needing to be calmed down by Bill Clinton (not the EU) in 1996. There are plenty of articles in the strategic journals about the current real risk of the two going to war.
How would Article 5 be invoked there?
psi310398 said:
RizzoTheRat said:
Greece and Italy both being members of NATO would mean that would be an NATO Article 5 incident surely? I.e. no way it would ever happen.
Are you certain? ISTR that Greece and Turkey are both NATO members and have perilously close to firing things at each other and tensions are particularly high at the moment, the last time needing to be calmed down by Bill Clinton (not the EU) in 1996. There are plenty of articles in the strategic journals about the current real risk of the two going to war.
How would Article 5 be invoked there?
Piha said:
AshVX220 said:
Piha said:
Have you confirmed your claim with Stormin' Norm and his role in the first Gulf War?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
We were there as it the actions of Iraq against Kuwait were deemed by our leaders to be something we should counter. And as we were there as part of an allied force and Stormin' Norman was the Commander of the allied forces in theater of course he had control of our forces in that theater of operations. Exactly as I said above, with consent and for the joint good of what is considered our national interests.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
He didn't just start issuing orders to our forces without going through all the required hoops!!
And does going to war on false evidence mean that our leaders clearly prove they shouldn't commit our troops to anything whatsoever?
Is the cunning EU army plan done away with our opt out? Or Irelands stance on EU wars?
Will we, or anybody else be forced to go and fight on the streets of Athens or Madrid as suggested earlier?
You haven't really thought about this have you? I doubt there will be any real EU army despite the wailings of PH Brexiteers!
My initial comment in response to you was in regard to your assessment that the US/UN/NATO can control our forces willy nilly, which is obviously b
ks.As for the EU Army, we won't be in the EU, so we won't be called on. If we were in the EU and signed up to supply resource to the EU Army then yes, they could request our participation in their operations and if if was a theatre commander from any EU army they would control (with consent) of our forces.
As has been mentioned before, for an EU Army to work they would have to prioritise what they want against what NATO wants (or as I suspect would actually just leave NATO) which could result on conflict of interest. As someone said above a very tight leash has to be maintained between Turkey and Greece at all times.
I was present at an incident in the Adriatic in '95 (I think, could have been '93) when to calm an unstable situation the theatre commander ordered all Turkish and Greek vessels back to their home ports before they used the incident as an excuse to start flinging ordnance at each other.
Anyway, as said, the EU had this as an aim, long before Brexit was even a thing, but I can't see it ending well if they push ahead with it. But what do I know, I can't think things through and clearly don't understand such things.......
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