Discussion
I suspect Macron and Merkel want to secure a European Army on the cheap. One which is in reality composed of forces nominally committed to NATO but available to the EU for its own purposes.
As I've said previously, the best way of flushing out enthusiasm for this army would be for the Donald to offer an ultimatum - NATO or EU, not both. And, if NATO, pony up your contribution of men and materiel in full. If the warm embrace of NATO weren't available, the Baltics and Denmark would never sign up to the Euro Army, and neither would (probably) the other East Europeans, the Dutch and the Belgians. Greece would not want to face a NATO with Turkey remaining in the Alliance.
In military doctrine terms, I don't think we can be indifferent to an EU Army. As I understand it, as the EU will not be our ally under any treaty, our forces would therefore need to plan scenarios, and ensure we had capability, to deal with conflict with the EU Army.
As I've said previously, the best way of flushing out enthusiasm for this army would be for the Donald to offer an ultimatum - NATO or EU, not both. And, if NATO, pony up your contribution of men and materiel in full. If the warm embrace of NATO weren't available, the Baltics and Denmark would never sign up to the Euro Army, and neither would (probably) the other East Europeans, the Dutch and the Belgians. Greece would not want to face a NATO with Turkey remaining in the Alliance.
In military doctrine terms, I don't think we can be indifferent to an EU Army. As I understand it, as the EU will not be our ally under any treaty, our forces would therefore need to plan scenarios, and ensure we had capability, to deal with conflict with the EU Army.
psi310398 said:
I suspect Macron and Merkel want to secure a European Army on the cheap. One which is in reality composed of forces nominally committed to NATO but available to the EU for its own purposes.
As I've said previously, the best way of flushing out enthusiasm for this army would be for the Donald to offer an ultimatum - NATO or EU, not both. And, if NATO, pony up your contribution of men and materiel in full. If the warm embrace of NATO weren't available, the Baltics and Denmark would never sign up to the Euro Army, and neither would (probably) the other East Europeans, the Dutch and the Belgians. Greece would not want to face a NATO with Turkey remaining in the Alliance.
In military doctrine terms, I don't think we can be indifferent to an EU Army. As I understand it, as the EU will not be our ally under any treaty, our forces would therefore need to plan scenarios, and ensure we had capability, to deal with conflict with the EU Army.
+1As I've said previously, the best way of flushing out enthusiasm for this army would be for the Donald to offer an ultimatum - NATO or EU, not both. And, if NATO, pony up your contribution of men and materiel in full. If the warm embrace of NATO weren't available, the Baltics and Denmark would never sign up to the Euro Army, and neither would (probably) the other East Europeans, the Dutch and the Belgians. Greece would not want to face a NATO with Turkey remaining in the Alliance.
In military doctrine terms, I don't think we can be indifferent to an EU Army. As I understand it, as the EU will not be our ally under any treaty, our forces would therefore need to plan scenarios, and ensure we had capability, to deal with conflict with the EU Army.
I can't see any scenario where the nations of an EU Army could remain in NATO. Sadly, I think the determination of France and Germany to have an EU army will trump their wish to remain in NATO.
fblm said:
I love this idea that the EU in it's various incarnations has kept peace in Europe. Nothing at all to do with over 300,000 US troops being stationed in Europe for almost 60 years.
I think their expansion into the buffer zone could have gone horrible wrong and the fact that they didn’t have an army is one of the reasons they got away with it.... With an army - all bets are off
B'stard Child said:
fblm said:
I love this idea that the EU in it's various incarnations has kept peace in Europe. Nothing at all to do with over 300,000 US troops being stationed in Europe for almost 60 years.
I think their expansion into the buffer zone could have gone horrible wrong and the fact that they didn’t have an army is one of the reasons they got away with it.... With an army - all bets are off
esxste said:
Warnings of an EU Army were used in Leave campaign materials, as a reason to leave.
Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
So you admit the EU needs the UK to keep their aggressive intentions in check?Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
danllama said:
So you admit the EU needs the UK to keep their aggressive intentions in check?
Actually, at this point, the UK needs to pull back so that other EU member states can s
t their collective beds about what is likely to happen without the US and UK as a counterweight to protect them.danllama said:
esxste said:
Warnings of an EU Army were used in Leave campaign materials, as a reason to leave.
Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
So you admit the EU needs the UK to keep their aggressive intentions in check?Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
If we do a good job of getting out of the EU and we do indeed see that formation of an EU army I am quite intrigued to see what the first target for "intervention" is, We have had europhile Blair take us to war on a whim and sexed up dossier, just imagine what all those unchecked europoliticians egos will do with a whole army at their disposal...
Whatever, its looking less like its going to involve us (unless we have to get involved to curtail the whole thing like the last couple of times) so we might actually avoid being shot at or blown up in the next round of hassles.
Glasgowrob said:
just a thought,
eu creates their own army with the eu members leaving NATO
Trump extends the olive branch and invites Russia to join NATO.
I think the reality is that the remaining NATO nations would be able to veto such a move if indeed the GOP ever allowed Trump to make such a move. Despite what the US would have us believe, NATO is very much a club of equals (in terms of decision making power).eu creates their own army with the eu members leaving NATO
Trump extends the olive branch and invites Russia to join NATO.
Glasgowrob said:
just a thought,
eu creates their own army with the eu members leaving NATO
Trump extends the olive branch and invites Russia to join NATO.
Putin wasn't against the ideaeu creates their own army with the eu members leaving NATO
Trump extends the olive branch and invites Russia to join NATO.
John145 said:
esxste said:
Warnings of an EU Army were used in Leave campaign materials, as a reason to leave.
Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
How long do you honestly believe the UK could hold back the EU? Try and be honest...Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
1: Dial a yield, they can flatten a city or detonate with only around 500 tonnes of TNT
2: They are accurate to around 100m
3: Basically unstoppable
Modern forces also have what I would term conventional MAD:
Gone are the days when you could declare war and have young people fight it on someone else's turf. The UK has two flavours of cruise missiles, fight the UK and expect the Reichstag and Elysee Palace to be rubble along with your power grid by that evening.
Now add in the effects on global supply chains of a blockade of the North Sea Ports.
France and Germany could do the same back but comfortable democracies tend not to like this sort of thing.
Talksteer said:
The UK has nukes, the ones on the sub are:
1: Dial a yield, they can flatten a city or detonate with only around 500 tonnes of TNT
2: They are accurate to around 100m
3: Basically unstoppable
Modern forces also have what I would term conventional MAD:
Gone are the days when you could declare war and have young people fight it on someone else's turf. The UK has two flavours of cruise missiles, fight the UK and expect the Reichstag and Elysee Palace to be rubble along with your power grid by that evening.
Now add in the effects on global supply chains of a blockade of the North Sea Ports.
France and Germany could do the same back but comfortable democracies tend not to like this sort of thing.
I gather that we also manage to keep rather more of our submarines out at sea than others, although not nearly as many as we are paying for, sadly1: Dial a yield, they can flatten a city or detonate with only around 500 tonnes of TNT
2: They are accurate to around 100m
3: Basically unstoppable
Modern forces also have what I would term conventional MAD:
Gone are the days when you could declare war and have young people fight it on someone else's turf. The UK has two flavours of cruise missiles, fight the UK and expect the Reichstag and Elysee Palace to be rubble along with your power grid by that evening.
Now add in the effects on global supply chains of a blockade of the North Sea Ports.
France and Germany could do the same back but comfortable democracies tend not to like this sort of thing.
.Talksteer said:
John145 said:
esxste said:
Warnings of an EU Army were used in Leave campaign materials, as a reason to leave.
Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
How long do you honestly believe the UK could hold back the EU? Try and be honest...Leave won the referendum and our Prime Minister has committed us to leaving the EU.
After March 29th, we no longer have a veto on it.
Just one of the chickens coming home to roost.
1: Dial a yield, they can flatten a city or detonate with only around 500 tonnes of TNT
2: They are accurate to around 100m
3: Basically unstoppable
Modern forces also have what I would term conventional MAD:
Gone are the days when you could declare war and have young people fight it on someone else's turf. The UK has two flavours of cruise missiles, fight the UK and expect the Reichstag and Elysee Palace to be rubble along with your power grid by that evening.
Now add in the effects on global supply chains of a blockade of the North Sea Ports.
France and Germany could do the same back but comfortable democracies tend not to like this sort of thing.
the next war is going to be digital,you won't even know it is going on.
garagewidow said:
So basically they are redundant.
the next war is going to be digital,you won't even know it is going on.
People keep saying this and yet men with guns seem astonishingly prevalent in current conflicts. the next war is going to be digital,you won't even know it is going on.
I'm afraid there never will be a substitute for boots on the ground except, of course, in cases such as the current Government's where they propose handing the whole country over without a shot being fired. Astonishing really; even the Anglo-Zanzibar War of 1896, lasted for a grand total of 38 minutes of live rounds being fired, before a massively outgunned force surrendered.
psi310398 said:
RizzoTheRat said:
Greece and Italy both being members of NATO would mean that would be an NATO Article 5 incident surely? I.e. no way it would ever happen.
Are you certain? ISTR that Greece and Turkey are both NATO members and have perilously close to firing things at each other and tensions are particularly high at the moment, the last time needing to be calmed down by Bill Clinton (not the EU) in 1996. There are plenty of articles in the strategic journals about the current real risk of the two going to war.
How would Article 5 be invoked there?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff