Discussion
What at you going to prosecute them for ?
Being religious ?
Deliberate harming of a child , there is rarely any intent to cause harm / pain.
Being culturally different ?
it maybe be misguided, but it is done out of love.
What punishment actually works ? Jail the parents and you remove a child from a loving home, to spend years in the care system ?
We have to accept if we allow these people to come and live in the UK they will bring their little quirks with them.
Being religious ?
Deliberate harming of a child , there is rarely any intent to cause harm / pain.
Being culturally different ?
it maybe be misguided, but it is done out of love.
What punishment actually works ? Jail the parents and you remove a child from a loving home, to spend years in the care system ?
We have to accept if we allow these people to come and live in the UK they will bring their little quirks with them.
Countdown said:
What a load of balls.
You're quite a sick individual if you're suggesting that "parental love" somehow trumps abuse.
It's GBH - parents need prosecuting.
Why do the parents do it then ? They are not monsters .You're quite a sick individual if you're suggesting that "parental love" somehow trumps abuse.
It's GBH - parents need prosecuting.
They don't wake up on Monday and think I will make a few small cuts on my children. These are not like the killers of baby p who have spent months abusing them.
This will be a celebration, a passage of rights, something that they and every female they know will have been through. It takes what 5 mins. The odds are nothing like this wil ever happen again, there is no further risk to the child from the parents.
So you take the child away from the parents and stick them in the care system- in the vast majority of cases that is their life ******, what does that achieve ?
Whilst the argument over cutting girls vs boys has been done to death.
How do you think your life would have turned out if your parents were locked up for carrying out their cultural / religious quirk on yourself ? They loved you before and they loved you afterwards, the odds are you were never at an increased risk of harm over say myself. Yet they had cut something from you that I assume was due to religious not medical grounds.
Your parents must be monsters - arrest them !!
Or were they carrying out something that they felt was culturally / religiously important to them and ultimately yourself ?
I appreciate the long terms effects are different, but if minor fgm was proposed on the nhs in a sterile legal environment would that change your view ?
This will take years of education and a drive to stop importing similar problems, arresting a few loving parents won't change anything.
I really don't care if Africans / Muslims want to chop bits of there own daughters, provided they do it in they own **** hole countries.
What I have never understood is why we accept immigration from these places without doing any homework beforehand. It is only after years of immigration that we realise that they have brought some problems with them, and then we end up tied in knots trying to do something about it.
If in some countries 90% plus are cut, I doubt that it was hardly a secret, why did it take us years to realise this and even longer to do nothing about it ?
If you accept immigration from these places, you have to accept what they will bring with them. You cant just make some of their cultural / religious practices illegal the moment they get off the plane.
What I have never understood is why we accept immigration from these places without doing any homework beforehand. It is only after years of immigration that we realise that they have brought some problems with them, and then we end up tied in knots trying to do something about it.
If in some countries 90% plus are cut, I doubt that it was hardly a secret, why did it take us years to realise this and even longer to do nothing about it ?
If you accept immigration from these places, you have to accept what they will bring with them. You cant just make some of their cultural / religious practices illegal the moment they get off the plane.
Countdown said:
del mar said:
I really don't care if Africans / Muslims want to chop bits of there own daughters, provided they do it in they own **** hole countries.
What I have never understood is why we accept immigration from these places without doing any homework beforehand. It is only after years of immigration that we realise that they have brought some problems with them, and then we end up tied in knots trying to do something about it.
If in some countries 90% plus are cut, I doubt that it was hardly a secret, why did it take us years to realise this and even longer to do nothing about it ?
If you accept immigration from these places, you have to accept what they will bring with them. You cant just make some of their cultural / religious practices illegal the moment they get off the plane.
Exactly. You don't particularly care about them except when it's a handy excuse to support your anti-immigrant views.What I have never understood is why we accept immigration from these places without doing any homework beforehand. It is only after years of immigration that we realise that they have brought some problems with them, and then we end up tied in knots trying to do something about it.
If in some countries 90% plus are cut, I doubt that it was hardly a secret, why did it take us years to realise this and even longer to do nothing about it ?
If you accept immigration from these places, you have to accept what they will bring with them. You cant just make some of their cultural / religious practices illegal the moment they get off the plane.
Glad that's cleared up.
However if we allow these people to come to our country we have to appreciate what they will bring with them, and whether that works for us or not. Do we have the ability / resources to deal with it ?
Looking at our complete failure to do anything about FGM, would suggest we did not appreciate it, and we certainly don't have the ability / resources to deal with it.
We have enough problems of our own, why import others ?
I may well be a moron, however;
FGM was not illegal when we started to import it.
I don't recall seeing big signs at Heathrow stating that it is now illegal, so those just arrived would be able to leave this custom on the plane. We don't appear to have any meaningful process in place to tell these people that they can cut their son but not their daughter. The fact that it has been illegal for over 30 years doesn't seem to have addressed it. It is more prevalent now as we continue to import it.
I don't believe breast ironing is a specific offence, it comes under general child abuse, again something we have imported that we had no idea about.
The negative health effects come from the fact that it tends to be carried out with a bit of broken glass or rusty blade and sewn up with twigs ! If boys were cut in the same way I imagine we would see a lot more issues. Legalise it and have it done in hospitals, sterile environment only allow the milder versions. Older women can be tidied up does not cause them any long term issues so why should this ?
Those that are cut as young children in the name of religion never complain about it, as it just forms part of general religious brainwashing. If you are told from a very young age that you had to be cut to demonstrate that you are of a certain religion and you want to be a good Jew / Muslim don't you ?
There have been adult women who have chose to be cut, not many but there are some out there, again that is fine as an adult that is your choice.
FGM was not illegal when we started to import it.
I don't recall seeing big signs at Heathrow stating that it is now illegal, so those just arrived would be able to leave this custom on the plane. We don't appear to have any meaningful process in place to tell these people that they can cut their son but not their daughter. The fact that it has been illegal for over 30 years doesn't seem to have addressed it. It is more prevalent now as we continue to import it.
I don't believe breast ironing is a specific offence, it comes under general child abuse, again something we have imported that we had no idea about.
The negative health effects come from the fact that it tends to be carried out with a bit of broken glass or rusty blade and sewn up with twigs ! If boys were cut in the same way I imagine we would see a lot more issues. Legalise it and have it done in hospitals, sterile environment only allow the milder versions. Older women can be tidied up does not cause them any long term issues so why should this ?
Those that are cut as young children in the name of religion never complain about it, as it just forms part of general religious brainwashing. If you are told from a very young age that you had to be cut to demonstrate that you are of a certain religion and you want to be a good Jew / Muslim don't you ?
There have been adult women who have chose to be cut, not many but there are some out there, again that is fine as an adult that is your choice.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your knowledge is wrong. Many NHS hospitals will do circumcision, especially in areas of the UK where it's popular. The view is taken that it's going to be done anyway, may as well do it in a safe and sterile environment. Some NHS trusts however, will not fund it.
Exactly if done in a safe sterile environment. We can cut girls In The same way.Countdown said:
wsurfa said:
So you agree both are illegal and require punishment, so progress is made? Feel free to check what constitutes each and where on the scale you would place place cutting which leaves permanent scarring, perhaps in line with a Type 1a of Type IV FGM.
Then, like I have write regularly to your MP and to (currently) Karen Bradley (karen.bradley.mp@parliament.uk) to raise your objection to mutilation of children in the name of culture/religion/habit.
My MP was diplomatically sympathetic, Bradley has not replied.
Your experience?
No I don't agree. FGM is illegal. Male circumcision isn't. As I said above I'm reasonably happy with that. So I won't be writing to my MP. Then, like I have write regularly to your MP and to (currently) Karen Bradley (karen.bradley.mp@parliament.uk) to raise your objection to mutilation of children in the name of culture/religion/habit.
My MP was diplomatically sympathetic, Bradley has not replied.
Your experience?
HTH
rscott said:
So back to discussing how to control an illegal activity (as opposed to wanting to ban something currently legal).
How do you suggest we reduce new cases of FGM ?
I'd go for a combination of education around the lack of medical need for it, along with help from various religious leaders to condemn it too. Then follow it up with a strong effort to identify and prosecute those carrying it out.
Could also run an educational campaign to dissuade male circumcision too, if you can supply convincing medical evidence to support it.
As said before we will do nothingHow do you suggest we reduce new cases of FGM ?
I'd go for a combination of education around the lack of medical need for it, along with help from various religious leaders to condemn it too. Then follow it up with a strong effort to identify and prosecute those carrying it out.
Could also run an educational campaign to dissuade male circumcision too, if you can supply convincing medical evidence to support it.
I suggest we make a form of it legal, carry it out in safe sterile environments.
Then we can all point out that although people don't like it it isint illegal.
wsurfa said:
Well, I've read a number of the relevant papers and their recommendations, I doubt you have. So yes pretty sure that washing/wrapping/vaccinating is by far a better approach. In the same way that regular teeth brushing is better than fillings, and a filling is better than pulling a tooth.
You seem to be advocating pulling out healthy teeth to avoid filings. Fillings that wouldn't occur anyway if proper oral hygiene was followed.
if it was laid out in their religious scriptures that All lower teeth were pulled out at the age of 10 they would all be doing it.You seem to be advocating pulling out healthy teeth to avoid filings. Fillings that wouldn't occur anyway if proper oral hygiene was followed.
religious circumcision in today's world has nothing to do with any perceived health benefits, it is about blindly following religous brainwashing.
Countdown said:
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of cases where the prosecution isn't successful.
Should we just make everything legal (as you suggest) ?
For whatever reason, the prosecution hasn't been successful in this case. It's still a particularly vile crime that needs to be prosecuted.
Or are you just trolling again?
It has been illegal for over 30 yet not one successful prosecution.Should we just make everything legal (as you suggest) ?
For whatever reason, the prosecution hasn't been successful in this case. It's still a particularly vile crime that needs to be prosecuted.
Or are you just trolling again?
There are thousands of girls/women in the UK that have been cut, and in the vast majority of cases we have no idea of where, when and by who.
The parents do not cut their children because they hate them or to deliberately cause then harm, I doubt they love them any less than you or I love our children. It is done from some misguided cultural belief, or in some cases because they think their god recommends it.
I don't believe sending two loving parents to jail and dumping a BAME child in care is the correct solution.
If we are supportive of non EU migration we have to accept that they will bring their little cultural / religious quirks with them.
That was always going to be the issue in reporting children that maybe at risk.
All you are going to report on is Muslims, which will go down like a cup of cold sick, you just wont have concerns re FGM on Chantelle from the local council estate, there maybe other issues but FGM is not going to be one of them.
We have done it before but not anymore, that is ok then we will take your word on that.
All you are going to report on is Muslims, which will go down like a cup of cold sick, you just wont have concerns re FGM on Chantelle from the local council estate, there maybe other issues but FGM is not going to be one of them.
We have done it before but not anymore, that is ok then we will take your word on that.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45442795
Not only are there pressures to have the right trainers and latest smartphone, but you must also be cut in the correct way to join in....
Not only are there pressures to have the right trainers and latest smartphone, but you must also be cut in the correct way to join in....
Triumph Man said:
del mar said:
If we cant prosecute anybody for it, why don't we just make it legal ?
Because we aren't a backward 3rd world hell hole, and should not encourage such barbaric practice.Why does such a barbaric practise occur / appear in our society ?
Countdown said:
del mar said:
But if done in a safe sterile medical environment there is no risk.
Why does such a barbaric practise occur / appear in our society ?
On the face of it that's quite a cretinous statement. After all, surely to anybody with a functioning brain would accept that it's quite a vile thing to do to a girl regardless of how "safe" you suggest it is.Why does such a barbaric practise occur / appear in our society ?
But the reality is more insidious that that, isn't it Del?
You're playing the faux naif by making such a suggestion in the hope that you can get PHers (those that can't see through your or those that share your vile views) all angry against muslims and immigrants. And please don't pretend this isn't your aim, it's obvious from many of the other threads that you grace with your presence.
FGM is a vile thing. It is banned and it needs to be eradicated. You are also quite a sad and vile individual for using it to push your agenda.
In a safe sterile environment I don't see what the issue is, the amount of cutting could be controlled / regulated. Using the back of an old rusty spoon in a mud hut is not the environment to have this done.
But you are correct we only have this vile thing as an issue in the country as we have imported it, no immigration no FGM, who would have though it !
TwigtheWonderkid said:
del mar said:
But you are correct we only have this vile thing as an issue in the country as we have imported it, no immigration no FGM, who would have though it !
Just as well, as without immigration, we wouldn't have an NHS to treat the complications!Only 20% of all NHS workers are classified as BAME, they make up about 13% of our population. They are over represented but not by the huge amount that popular perception would have us believe.
Some sectors will have different proportions.
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