The economic consequences of Brexit (Vol 2)
Discussion
John145 said:
Breadvan72 said:
I shall use small words. The false claim (which was not just on the bus) may have persuaded some people. I am sorry that one of those words had three syllables in it. Ooops, there's another.
Using equally small words:The false claims in the pamphlet produced by the then government coerced many people to vote remain.
PS: Coerced is a bit too brainy a word for this thread, surely?
John145 said:
Using equally small words:
The false claims in the pamphlet produced by the then government coerced many people to vote remain.
Quite...how many Remainers voted that was because "We don't like the EU but we can change it from the inside" garbage?The false claims in the pamphlet produced by the then government coerced many people to vote remain.
The red bus was an unintended master-stoke. "Stop lying we don't send £350m a week to the EU, it's only £200m"
cookie118 said:
andymadmak said:
I asked earlier (or maybe it was in another thread? It gets confusing!) what Remainers thought the vote split would have been if Juncker had made his "Future of Europe" speech before the referendum instead of just a week or so ago. I got no response.
From my viewpoint, I honestly think that if Juncker had made that speech in the week before the Referendum then the vote to leave would have been 65:35 or possibly even higher. Now I know that I cannot prove that, and I am just expressing an opinion, but the clue for Remainers as to why Britain voted to leave lies, at least in part, in the content of that speech and the future it evokes - a future which those on the mainland of Europe have always been far more open and honest about than most of our own rather shabby pro EU politicians. You could say that Junckers vision would never have happened if the UK had voted to stay, but I think that that position would be either naive or disingenuous.
It’s not disingenuous or naive to say it would never have happened if we’d voted to remain.From my viewpoint, I honestly think that if Juncker had made that speech in the week before the Referendum then the vote to leave would have been 65:35 or possibly even higher. Now I know that I cannot prove that, and I am just expressing an opinion, but the clue for Remainers as to why Britain voted to leave lies, at least in part, in the content of that speech and the future it evokes - a future which those on the mainland of Europe have always been far more open and honest about than most of our own rather shabby pro EU politicians. You could say that Junckers vision would never have happened if the UK had voted to stay, but I think that that position would be either naive or disingenuous.
Edited by andymadmak on Monday 25th September 10:15
It’s become a self fulfilling prophecy for the leavers as I’ve pointed out beforehand. We would never have allowed that vision to proceed, but now we are gone it can happen, allowing the leave scaremongers to bleat about how bad it is and how glad they are not to be moving in a direction we would never have been (or been able to be) forced down!
Leaving aside the vulnerability of that veto to changes in rules such as the introduction of QMV in more areas of policy, or even the reckless surrendering of the veto by some hitherto unidentified future UK Prime Minister ( don't laugh, look what Gordon did with the gold reserves!) , do you not think that it would be an entirely unsatisfactory position for the UK to be the roadblock to the other EU member states (most? all?) getting what they want? It hardly endears us to them does it? Surely if the others (or a majority of them) want this USEU type thing they should be allowed to get on with it?
And, if I may, I note that you have not actually answered my point about what the winning margin for Brexit would have been if Juncker had delivered his speech before the Referendum.. It would either have been a vote winner for Remain or a recruiting sergeant for Brexiteers would it not? I think we both know that the latter is the more likely.
pgh said:
Fittster said:
I'd interpret what Boris said as: We'll be £350m a week better off and a high proportion of that would go the NHS.
The slogan on the Bus: "We send the EU £350 million a week. Lets fund the NHS instead".
If the 350m is complicated, it's because the gross/net/pre/post rebate position is also complicated (and that's before the surprise black economy payments!)The slogan on the Bus: "We send the EU £350 million a week. Lets fund the NHS instead".
By Boris standards, the language is plain. We will be in control of that money & Boris would like to spend a lot of it on the NHS. I find it difficult to understand why it is so contentious.
Breadvan72 said:
The 350 million claim (which was not just a one off on one bus) was just one of many fibs told by the Leave camp. The debate on both sides was marred by distortions and lack of evidence based analyses. Cameron deserves all the ire that is heaped on him for many reasons, and one of his many toxic legacies to the country is the driving further into the gutter of an already degraded political discourse. He is not alone to blame for that, of course.
In the interest of balance... The European Council President informed us that western political civilisation could well be destroyed if we voted to leave.
The then Chancellor predicted huge tax rises and spending cuts if we voted to leave.
Scientists and Universities claimed Horizon2020 funding would vanish if we voted to leave.
Remainers told us of an immediate recession and millions of job losses if we voted to leave.
Remainers derided the notion of an EU army - this is coming round to haunt them now, despite us having voted to leave.
In the context of these porkies b
hing about £350m/£200m/2 shillings to the NHS is laughable.Breadvan72 said:
John145 said:
Breadvan72 said:
I shall use small words. The false claim (which was not just on the bus) may have persuaded some people. I am sorry that one of those words had three syllables in it. Ooops, there's another.
Using equally small words:The false claims in the pamphlet produced by the then government coerced many people to vote remain.
PS: Coerced is a bit too brainy a word for this thread, surely?
There will be an emergency budget
Taxes will increase
House prices will rise
It was a pamphlet of threats.
Is the best the 'butthurted' remainers can muster is to bleat on again about the bus thing - clinging on to it like some child with a comfort blanket unable to acknowledge their own failings in being able to clearly articulate the positives of remaining in the EU and unable to move forward. Desperate and weak stuff indeed.
We are, apparently, leaving the EU and the thread is about the economic consequences. All the previous misleading bks from both sides before the vote is now irrelevant, so can we get back to cogent arguments on whether we will be rich beyond our wildest dreams or finished as a serious economy or somewhere in between?
We are, apparently, leaving the EU and the thread is about the economic consequences. All the previous misleading b
ks from both sides before the vote is now irrelevant, so can we get back to cogent arguments on whether we will be rich beyond our wildest dreams or finished as a serious economy or somewhere in between?Breadvan72 said:
...
It appears that the definition of the metro elite is that it's some Londoners who have a few quid, who may own at least one book, and with whom you disagree. ...
It appears that way to you for whatever reason. I suspect because you suspect you're wrapped up in the definition and...disagree with it/the pejorative use It appears that the definition of the metro elite is that it's some Londoners who have a few quid, who may own at least one book, and with whom you disagree. ...
Breadvan72 said:
I know of no way to measure the impact of each individual campaign slogan or assertion, but history tells us that electorates are often gullible to false claims...
And of the false claims and hugely misleading statements from Remain? Presumably people weren't gullible towards those? Or, indeed, that there weren't any and only whole truths and nothing but the truths?It suits your position that people were lied to and too gullible not to notice. It helps you rationalise what you believe is the wrong decision.
Without any hard facts/data to back it up, it's as logical to assume as many people were suckered into voting Remain as were to vote Leave. Which leaves us....with the same result.
Breadvan72 said:
...The EU is a subject hedged around with myths. For example, not that many pages ago here someone glibly trotted out the false statement that the EU does not (indeed dare not) publish accounts. That poster probably believed that false statement to be true when he posted it. He had probably picked it up as it circulated on the web along with many other Euro-myths.
...
Some Leave voters may not have understood this. But not all. And there is a grave danger here that you (and the people taking a similar stance) are playing with semantics....
- the EU accounts have only been signed off since 2007. The 15yrs before?
- they have done so with the caveat that "they record significant errors in how money is paid, and this has been the case since 1995" (https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/)
A layman would seriously question why you would sign off accounts with "significant errors". Auditors signing them off sounds, on the face of it, like they are legit. And yet...
Were these "significant errors" enough between 1995 and 2007 not to sign off the accounts? What changed?
Semantics or not, something is deeply flawed with the way the EU handles its finances. Which fully explains the fantasy figures they throw around during divorce bill discussions.
Garvin said:
Is the best the 'butthurted' remainers can muster is to bleat on again about the bus thing - clinging on to it like some child with a comfort blanket unable to acknowledge their own failings in being able to clearly articulate the positives of remaining in the EU and unable to move forward. Desperate and weak stuff indeed.
We are, apparently, leaving the EU and the thread is about the economic consequences. All the previous misleading bks from both sides before the vote is now irrelevant, so can we get back to cogent arguments on whether we will be rich beyond our wildest dreams or finished as a serious economy or somewhere in between?
Somewhere in between.We are, apparently, leaving the EU and the thread is about the economic consequences. All the previous misleading b
ks from both sides before the vote is now irrelevant, so can we get back to cogent arguments on whether we will be rich beyond our wildest dreams or finished as a serious economy or somewhere in between?[/end of thread]
Garvin said:
We are, apparently, leaving the EU and the thread is about the economic consequences. All the previous misleading bks from both sides before the vote is now irrelevant, so can we get back to cogent arguments on whether we will be rich beyond our wildest dreams or finished as a serious economy or somewhere in between?
I was enjoying the thread it was nice to once again do a retrospective of the reasons to leave or remain..... After all we have no idea what will happen anyway as to the economic consequences ks from both sides before the vote is now irrelevant, so can we get back to cogent arguments on whether we will be rich beyond our wildest dreams or finished as a serious economy or somewhere in between?
Eddie Strohacker said:
Anyway, on Deptford's boring merry go round, it's a fact he overlooks Leave icon BoJo's intervention last week, rightly bringing heaps of derision upon himself, even accounting for him knowing exactly what he was doing. But in Deptford land, it's all just remainers dragging up the past for no good reason. None so blind...as someone actually did once write.
You are the one who wants a a second referendum ( or 'check vote' as your fellow moron ,///ajd , calls it ) and the year long big red bus rage from you and others is the only repetitive thing here. I find yours and others excuse finding for your own unwillingness to accept the result, is the reason why the same old boring debate rolls on and on. The big red bus thing is nothing more than looking around for excuses and reasons to change the result, or at best, give you a personal reason to moan on like an old woman about the result without much basis.
The only ones moaning about the £350m thing are remainers. The hoped for numbers of people who you thought would reverse there vote on this have not materialised , mainly because most knew it could only ever be a suggestion from a cross-party campaign group and not an election manifesto commitment, and then second, because even if the NHS didn't get any or even part of it, the control of it and the fact it wasn't going to the EU was so closely linked that people weren't going to change their vote on the back of it.
Bottom line is, you are still moaning a year on and clinging to excuses and trying to get out of the result. I'm not.
Deptford Draylons said:
You are the one who wants a a second referendum ( or 'check vote' as your fellow moron ,///ajd , calls it ) and the year long big red bus rage from you and others is the only repetitive thing here.
I find yours and others excuse finding for your own unwillingness to accept the result, is the reason why the same old boring debate rolls on and on. The big red bus thing is nothing more than looking around for excuses and reasons to change the result, or at best, give you a personal reason to moan on like an old woman about the result without much basis.
The only ones moaning about the £350m thing are remainers. The hoped for numbers of people who you thought would reverse there vote on this have not materialised , mainly because most knew it could only ever be a suggestion from a cross-party campaign group and not an election manifesto commitment, and then second, because even if the NHS didn't get any or even part of it, the control of it and the fact it wasn't going to the EU was so closely linked that people weren't going to change their vote on the back of it.
Bottom line is, you are still moaning a year on and clinging to excuses and trying to get out of the result. I'm not.
No, just a record with a scratch. I love that you reflexively call me a moron & then mix up 'there' & 'their'. It's like you're not all that bright to the extent you can't spell, construct a sentence grammatically or do anything other than say the same thing over & over again, some might say...I find yours and others excuse finding for your own unwillingness to accept the result, is the reason why the same old boring debate rolls on and on. The big red bus thing is nothing more than looking around for excuses and reasons to change the result, or at best, give you a personal reason to moan on like an old woman about the result without much basis.
The only ones moaning about the £350m thing are remainers. The hoped for numbers of people who you thought would reverse there vote on this have not materialised , mainly because most knew it could only ever be a suggestion from a cross-party campaign group and not an election manifesto commitment, and then second, because even if the NHS didn't get any or even part of it, the control of it and the fact it wasn't going to the EU was so closely linked that people weren't going to change their vote on the back of it.
Bottom line is, you are still moaning a year on and clinging to excuses and trying to get out of the result. I'm not.
Deptford Draylons said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Anyway, on Deptford's boring merry go round, it's a fact he overlooks Leave icon BoJo's intervention last week, rightly bringing heaps of derision upon himself, even accounting for him knowing exactly what he was doing. But in Deptford land, it's all just remainers dragging up the past for no good reason. None so blind...as someone actually did once write.
You are the one who wants a a second referendum ( or 'check vote' as your fellow moron ,///ajd , calls it ) and the year long big red bus rage from you and others is the only repetitive thing here. I find yours and others excuse finding for your own unwillingness to accept the result, is the reason why the same old boring debate rolls on and on. The big red bus thing is nothing more than looking around for excuses and reasons to change the result, or at best, give you a personal reason to moan on like an old woman about the result without much basis.
The only ones moaning about the £350m thing are remainers. The hoped for numbers of people who you thought would reverse there vote on this have not materialised , mainly because most knew it could only ever be a suggestion from a cross-party campaign group and not an election manifesto commitment, and then second, because even if the NHS didn't get any or even part of it, the control of it and the fact it wasn't going to the EU was so closely linked that people weren't going to change their vote on the back of it.
Bottom line is, you are still moaning a year on and clinging to excuses and trying to get out of the result. I'm not.
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
You are the one who wants a a second referendum ( or 'check vote' as your fellow moron ,///ajd , calls it ) and the year long big red bus rage from you and others is the only repetitive thing here.
I find yours and others excuse finding for your own unwillingness to accept the result, is the reason why the same old boring debate rolls on and on. The big red bus thing is nothing more than looking around for excuses and reasons to change the result, or at best, give you a personal reason to moan on like an old woman about the result without much basis.
The only ones moaning about the £350m thing are remainers. The hoped for numbers of people who you thought would reverse there vote on this have not materialised , mainly because most knew it could only ever be a suggestion from a cross-party campaign group and not an election manifesto commitment, and then second, because even if the NHS didn't get any or even part of it, the control of it and the fact it wasn't going to the EU was so closely linked that people weren't going to change their vote on the back of it.
Bottom line is, you are still moaning a year on and clinging to excuses and trying to get out of the result. I'm not.
No, just a record with a scratch. I love that you reflexively call me a moron & then mix up 'there' & 'their'. It's like you're not all that bright to the extent you can't spell, construct a sentence grammatically or do anything other than say the same thing over & over again, some might say...I find yours and others excuse finding for your own unwillingness to accept the result, is the reason why the same old boring debate rolls on and on. The big red bus thing is nothing more than looking around for excuses and reasons to change the result, or at best, give you a personal reason to moan on like an old woman about the result without much basis.
The only ones moaning about the £350m thing are remainers. The hoped for numbers of people who you thought would reverse there vote on this have not materialised , mainly because most knew it could only ever be a suggestion from a cross-party campaign group and not an election manifesto commitment, and then second, because even if the NHS didn't get any or even part of it, the control of it and the fact it wasn't going to the EU was so closely linked that people weren't going to change their vote on the back of it.
Bottom line is, you are still moaning a year on and clinging to excuses and trying to get out of the result. I'm not.
Deptford Draylons said:
Only you could call someone repetitive while doing the same big red bus arguments for over a year now. Keep fighting that result, Eddie.
Wut? You're still ignoring Boris repeating his lie which is what kicked all this off again. Is comprehending simple news stories something that's troubled you for all of your 17 years?Eddie Strohacker said:
Wut? You're still ignoring Boris repeating his lie which is what kicked all this off again. Is comprehending simple news stories something that's troubled you for all of your 17 years?
Which part of what Boris said in his latest correspondence do you think is a lie?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff