The economic consequences of Brexit (Vol 2)
Discussion
///ajd said:
Good work guys, got to love the playground ad homs - have you noticed none of you seem to have the balls to discuss the economics of Brexit & the food price issue? The irony is sweet. The blind trust in the experts at DEFRA withholding the FOI request is quite touching. Experts that are keeping the bad news away are clearly OK.
And still defending the bus. Boris knew his audience. Great stuff!
I can't believe it but I, err, well, agree with the first part of the above post in that everyone has stopped 'debating'* the economic issues and has reverted to going over old ground again . . . . . . and again. Perhaps it has run its course and an honourable draw is on the cards!And still defending the bus. Boris knew his audience. Great stuff!
I don't know enough about food production so can't engage on the food price issue. All I do know is that a good friend who is an arable farmer voted leave and is quite optomistic about the future outside the EU. Perhaps this is because he sees a route to getting a better price for his stuff which may well result in higher food prices although he couched his optimism in terms of the whole UK farming community being able (forced) to use all its land productively rather than rely on 'subsidies' to effectively do nothing. I'll have to have a more in depth chat with him to get a more comprehensive take on his view.
*Includes throwing bricks at each other
I live in Islington. It is socially and ethnically mixed. Near my house in a pleasant street there are some grotty estates that generate anti social behaviour. There are still traditional white working class communities in the area, as well as Somalis, lots of Parisians, metro elite types such as me (sadly lawyers can hardly afford Barnsbury now - we have been driven out by hedgies and other banker types), African-Caribbeans, Polish and other central and eastern Europeans, and even some (OMG run!) South Asian Muslims. The local white working class people seem to be mainly either British or Irish in origin . They tend to be Labour-voting, Arsenal-supporting, employed, and not prone to supporting racist groups. There are still families of black cab drivers living in Islington, and also some traditional dynasties of white working class crims who run various drug and robbery networks. Recently, there has been a plague of hipsters. So, a mix. Other parts of London are all poor, or all rich. Edmonton is dire. Belgravia is too, for different reasons.
The sharing that London ought to do more of is the sharing of affluence. Affluence tends to bring enlightenment. By enlightenment I do not mean monoviews or monoculture. I mean education and opportunities to enjoy the things that make life more bearable. In many parts of the UK, there is little opportunity to experience theatre, music, dance, visual arts and good cookery. That seems to me a pity.
The sharing that London ought to do more of is the sharing of affluence. Affluence tends to bring enlightenment. By enlightenment I do not mean monoviews or monoculture. I mean education and opportunities to enjoy the things that make life more bearable. In many parts of the UK, there is little opportunity to experience theatre, music, dance, visual arts and good cookery. That seems to me a pity.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th September 08:30
JagLover said:
"Enlightened" is the big issue as it means that anyone who doesn't share the world view of the Metropolitan set is ignorant and needs their views changed to the "correct" viewpoint. Modern Liberalism, all for diversity, except for diversity of opinion.
I was reading last night and saw this. It made me chuckle merely because, despite having been written nearly 150 years ago, and in another country, it is still apt:Second paragraph:
JagLover referred to Platonic Philosopher Kings. I suspect that JagLover has not read much Plato. Plato's Philosopher King does not allow stuff like theatre or poetry. He makes life in London or elsewhere even more grim than it was under Cromwell. Contrast Hayek, who once quipped, only half jokingly, that the only two things that the State should pay for are a police force and an opera house. He sort of had a point.
The London vs the rest point is, as noted above, well encapsulated by comparing Germany and France with the UK. Germany in particular has several big and exciting cities and lots of cool towns and lots of fab countryside. It has its s
tholes of course, and its dull middling places, everywhere does. France suffers a bit because La France Profonde has vanished in some regions - you can in some areas drive through several small towns without finding a restaurant or small shop available, but France still has fun big cities that are not Paris, and also pleasant towns. Those countries are larger than the UK, but sheer size is not alone the reason for the relative lack of dominance of the capital cities.
The London vs the rest point is, as noted above, well encapsulated by comparing Germany and France with the UK. Germany in particular has several big and exciting cities and lots of cool towns and lots of fab countryside. It has its s
tholes of course, and its dull middling places, everywhere does. France suffers a bit because La France Profonde has vanished in some regions - you can in some areas drive through several small towns without finding a restaurant or small shop available, but France still has fun big cities that are not Paris, and also pleasant towns. Those countries are larger than the UK, but sheer size is not alone the reason for the relative lack of dominance of the capital cities. Breadvan72 said:
The London vs the rest point is, as noted above, well encapsulated by comparing Germany and France with the UK. Germany in particular has several big and exciting cities and lots of cool towns and lots of fab countryside. It has its stholes of course, and its dull middling places, everywhere does. France suffers a bit because La France Profonde has vanished in some regions - you can in some areas drive through several small towns without finding a restaurant or small shop available, but France still has fun big cities that are not Paris, and also pleasant towns. Those countries are larger than the UK, but sheer size is not alone the reason for the relative lack of dominance of the capital cities.
On this I agree wholeheartedly; we should be trying to emulate the German model rather than the French 'mothership', Paris-centric model.tholes of course, and its dull middling places, everywhere does. France suffers a bit because La France Profonde has vanished in some regions - you can in some areas drive through several small towns without finding a restaurant or small shop available, but France still has fun big cities that are not Paris, and also pleasant towns. Those countries are larger than the UK, but sheer size is not alone the reason for the relative lack of dominance of the capital cities. Sway said:
Ad hominems within a debate are defined as using the person stating the opposing case as the basis for your own argument. Please feel free to attempt to show where i have done so...
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ad-hominem
Christ, what a stuffed shirt of a retort. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ad-hominem
(No ad hom by your definition).
JagLover said:
Roman Rhodes said:
So you are saying that the aunts and uncles didn't want to come to London because it is affluent and enlightened? How odd.
Alternatively, you are deliberately misrepresenting what was said so that you can shoehorn in a few tired cliches about the "Metropolitan elite". Aunts and uncles not liking big crowded and grumpy I can understand. Not liking affluent and enlightened seems weird.
You say "live and let live". Can we take it that you are happy with the lack of jobs, investment, opportunities, infrastructure etc. away from London and the South East? The 'North/South divide' doesn't bother you? Boarded up shops, whole streets for sale at less than the price of a 3 bed semi in North London - this is what you want to preserve?
Compare and contrast with our European equivalents, France and Germany. There simply aren't the wild variations of quality of life between the capitals and the provinces. The vast majority of small French towns look well cared for and are examples of cultural and civic success.
Why don't you want to share success? Or is it just that you want to make a few cheap shots by wilfully misrepresenting what was actually said.
Affluent I have no issue with, though it shouldn't come at the expense of quality of life. Once housing costs are adjusted for how many Londoners have a better quality of life than elsewhere in the country?. I certainly improved my quality of life by getting out, so in fact making us more like London will make us poorer. Alternatively, you are deliberately misrepresenting what was said so that you can shoehorn in a few tired cliches about the "Metropolitan elite". Aunts and uncles not liking big crowded and grumpy I can understand. Not liking affluent and enlightened seems weird.
You say "live and let live". Can we take it that you are happy with the lack of jobs, investment, opportunities, infrastructure etc. away from London and the South East? The 'North/South divide' doesn't bother you? Boarded up shops, whole streets for sale at less than the price of a 3 bed semi in North London - this is what you want to preserve?
Compare and contrast with our European equivalents, France and Germany. There simply aren't the wild variations of quality of life between the capitals and the provinces. The vast majority of small French towns look well cared for and are examples of cultural and civic success.
Why don't you want to share success? Or is it just that you want to make a few cheap shots by wilfully misrepresenting what was actually said.
"Enlightened" is the big issue as it means that anyone who doesn't share the world view of the Metropolitan set is ignorant and needs their views changed to the "correct" viewpoint. Modern Liberalism, all for diversity, except for diversity of opinion.
I, and I suspect others, would disagree with your chosen definition of "enlightened". I note you ignore the 'North/South divide' point regarding opportunities etc. Perhaps you are the one closed to "diversity of opinion".
Eddie Strohacker said:
Sway said:
Ad hominems within a debate are defined as using the person stating the opposing case as the basis for your own argument. Please feel free to attempt to show where i have done so...
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ad-hominem
Christ, what a stuffed shirt of a retort. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ad-hominem
(No ad hom by your definition).
Oh, and the reason my post wasn't an ad hominem was due to giving a rationale for why ajd was over reaching. Without giving a rationale to your rebuttal, you've relied on the assertion of my stuffed shirted-ness as the basis of your argument, which is an ad hominem...
Ah well.
Sway said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Sway said:
Ad hominems within a debate are defined as using the person stating the opposing case as the basis for your own argument. Please feel free to attempt to show where i have done so...
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ad-hominem
Christ, what a stuffed shirt of a retort. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ad-hominem
(No ad hom by your definition).
Oh, and the reason my post wasn't an ad hominem was due to giving a rationale for why ajd was over reaching. Without giving a rationale to your rebuttal, you've relied on the assertion of my stuffed shirted-ness as the basis of your argument, which is an ad hominem...
Ah well.
C19 and early to mid C20 UK had vibrant metropolitan centres in the provinces. Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow - all replete with art galleries, libraries, orchestras, theatres, even opera houses. These were directly or indirectly funded by industry and sponsored by municipally minded business types, and accessible by many, not just by a gilded few, with good restaurants at various price points to go to after the show. The provincial cities have all been eclipsed by London since the War, and especially since the 1980s (have a think about the 1980s and what the political vibe was back then) . The provincial cities have revived a bit in the post industrial era, but with some exceptions are still lacking in cultural pizzazz. Galleries and libraries, yes, but not as much theatre, not much opera or ballet, most cinemas blockbuster multiplexes. Good sport in some places. Edinburgh does well, especially at festival time, but Glasgow is not quite what it was, and outside its pleasant west end is riven by grot.
Some will say - we are skint, culture is expensive, and things like troops and schools and hospitals are more important; but culture is actually quite cheap (in relative terms), and it can help with some of the other things. After WW2 in Europe, when people were literally starving and had no coal to heat their roofless homes, what did they do? Some of them established big arts festivals such as Edinburgh and Aix and so on. The French revived their film industry. Orchestras in the UK and France invited German conductors to come and lead them in Beethoven and Mozart (they chose German and Austrian composers on purpose - one French musician said "it's the only way that we can learn how to talk to the Germans again"). People who had been through Hell turned to culture to help rebuild their busted up continent.
Back more on topic, another thing that some people did back then was to found what became the EU. Some will say that was a sinister elitist plot against democracy (some may even field that made up quotation by that bloke who never said that made up thing) . Others might say that there were other motives, and other effects.
Some will say - we are skint, culture is expensive, and things like troops and schools and hospitals are more important; but culture is actually quite cheap (in relative terms), and it can help with some of the other things. After WW2 in Europe, when people were literally starving and had no coal to heat their roofless homes, what did they do? Some of them established big arts festivals such as Edinburgh and Aix and so on. The French revived their film industry. Orchestras in the UK and France invited German conductors to come and lead them in Beethoven and Mozart (they chose German and Austrian composers on purpose - one French musician said "it's the only way that we can learn how to talk to the Germans again"). People who had been through Hell turned to culture to help rebuild their busted up continent.
Back more on topic, another thing that some people did back then was to found what became the EU. Some will say that was a sinister elitist plot against democracy (some may even field that made up quotation by that bloke who never said that made up thing) . Others might say that there were other motives, and other effects.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th September 09:07
Breadvan72 said:
Germany in particular has several big and exciting cities and lots of cool towns and lots of fab countryside. It has its stholes of course, and its dull middling places, everywhere does. France suffers a bit because La France Profonde has vanished in some regions - you can in some areas drive through several small towns without finding a restaurant or small shop available, but France still has fun big cities that are not Paris, and also pleasant towns. Those countries are larger than the UK, but sheer size is not alone the reason for the relative lack of dominance of the capital cities.
Germany is a relatively young country. It is made up of various provinces and areas which up to just over 100 years ago had their own capitals etc. so by nature has a more federal and fragmented make up with strong regional capitals with their own history as a regional centre. On top of that, for 45 years it did not have a single major capital and Berlin even now is still smaller than it was in 1945 in terms of population.tholes of course, and its dull middling places, everywhere does. France suffers a bit because La France Profonde has vanished in some regions - you can in some areas drive through several small towns without finding a restaurant or small shop available, but France still has fun big cities that are not Paris, and also pleasant towns. Those countries are larger than the UK, but sheer size is not alone the reason for the relative lack of dominance of the capital cities. I think history has more of a bearing on Germany's make up rather than any particular design although I agree it works well. It is well worth exploring and it is a shame more British people don't do so. If you tell someone you are going on holiday to Germany they look at you like you are mad.
Edited by confused_buyer on Tuesday 26th September 09:11
Sway said:
Not my definition, the dictionary'.
Oh, and the reason my post wasn't an ad hominem was due to giving a rationale for why ajd was over reaching. Without giving a rationale to your rebuttal, you've relied on the assertion of my stuffed shirted-ness as the basis of your argument, which is an ad hominem...
Ah well.
Asked before, but as an observation, why is it the right are so unbearably po-faced? Lefties might run the country into the ground but at least there'd be a few laughs along the way as opposed to some Nebbish quoting the bloody dictionary at me repeatedly.Oh, and the reason my post wasn't an ad hominem was due to giving a rationale for why ajd was over reaching. Without giving a rationale to your rebuttal, you've relied on the assertion of my stuffed shirted-ness as the basis of your argument, which is an ad hominem...
Ah well.
///ajd said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Sway said:
No ad homs here...
You didn't have the balls
This is not how denying ad hominem works.You didn't have the balls
We're working with some pretty sharp tools here, be careful.
Here we have two posters. One who cries 'stuffed shirt' after actually typing 'ask me how I know this'. Another who implies stupidity whilst having been unable to rebut logic and verifiable facts (instead relying on an article full of 'Unite claims'), and has also shown such intellect as 'if we sign a FTA with a country the EU doesn't have one with, we can't get a FTA with the EU'.
Breadvan72 said:
Ja He makes life in London or elsewhere even more grim than it was under Cromwell. Contrast Hayek, who once quipped, only half jokingly, that the only two things that the State should pay for are a police force and an opera house. He sort of had a point.
Not at all, for those who like it, particularly the young, I am sure London is a fine place to live. Just don't assume everyone wants to live there or in a replica. the fact that over 1/2 million Brits leave it every decade should give you a clue on thatEdited by JagLover on Tuesday 26th September 09:20
cookie118 said:
Tuna said:
cookie118 said:
The majority of newspapers and newspaper articles in the leadup to the referendum were pro-Brexit.
https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-re...
Of the articles focused on the referendum, 41% were pro-Leave, while 27% were pro-Remain, creating a dominant pro-Leave presence. (See Fig 4.1) After factoring in the reach of different newspapers, the pro-Brexit dominance is further accentuated, with 48% of all referendum-focused articles pro-Leave and just 22% pro-Remain.
The Leave campaign did many things right-but creating the illusion of 'sticking it to the establishment' was one of their greatest accomplishments.
How dishonest is that? I talk about media and you quote a report on the press. Care to find an equivalent report that includes BBC, Channel 4, ITV and Sky coverage?https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-re...
Of the articles focused on the referendum, 41% were pro-Leave, while 27% were pro-Remain, creating a dominant pro-Leave presence. (See Fig 4.1) After factoring in the reach of different newspapers, the pro-Brexit dominance is further accentuated, with 48% of all referendum-focused articles pro-Leave and just 22% pro-Remain.
The Leave campaign did many things right-but creating the illusion of 'sticking it to the establishment' was one of their greatest accomplishments.
It shows a remain bias but 80+% of the coverage being balanced. (82% balanced, 12% in, 6% out).
I don’t think it’s dishonest to talk about the press if you’ve mentioned media. You mentioned it to try and prove a point-that the election and current coverage is biased towards remain. But if you leave out the press from that coverage is that not a false position to take?
Are you going to claim that the output of British newspapers had no influence on the vote either?
Daily Mail - pro brexit.....Mail on Sunday - pro remain
As has been pointed out here before (jj perhaps?), the media issue on brexit has been a >cumulative< one. For decades, negative EU stories (true or not) have had a cumulative influence on public opinion. This most likely influenced voter intention.
Then you take Corbyn (I wish somebody would).
Pretty much all Newspapers - pro May.......The Mirror - pro Corbyn.
Corbyn loses but with an enormous upsurge. Newspapers ignored. Social Media becomes the new influencer.
Roman Rhodes said:
alfie2244 said:
don'tbesilly said:
alfie2244 said:
CaptainSlow said:
Slasher doesn't let fact get in the way of his bks.
Do we actually know for certain Slasher is a man?ks.ks?Eddie Strohacker said:
Sway said:
The irony is strong.
Here we have two posters. One who cries 'stuffed shirt' after actually typing 'ask me how I know this'. .
Wut? Here we have two posters. One who cries 'stuffed shirt' after actually typing 'ask me how I know this'. .
Eddie Strohacker said:
Some of this is true, but you are going to see rapidly rising transport costs post brexit. Feel free to ask me how I know this.
How's that shirt feeling now? Sway said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Sway said:
The irony is strong.
Here we have two posters. One who cries 'stuffed shirt' after actually typing 'ask me how I know this'. .
Wut? Here we have two posters. One who cries 'stuffed shirt' after actually typing 'ask me how I know this'. .
Eddie Strohacker said:
Some of this is true, but you are going to see rapidly rising transport costs post brexit. Feel free to ask me how I know this.
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