The economic consequences of Brexit (Vol 2)
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
///ajd said:
Funny Tuna, in this post you were telling us all exactly what the reasons they voted leave were - and how damaging the CAP was and how the rural welsh all know all about it, like you do, and how experts like the Farmers Union views can be dismissed as they know nothing about it or their members - the article about the motives is clearly just metro elite lies and they didn’t really do a survey for a year as to why those in the valleys voted leave. Presumably the Farmers Union are leftie metro elite too.
For someone (if I recall correctly, I maybe mistaken) who is a reformed remain voter who now just wants to get behind brexit you have some interestingly strong views on some subjects.
Stating that the Welsh public gets more from the EU than it pays in tax is not a misuse of stats, its a bloody fact! It is true that this doesn’t apply to the rest of the UK which is why it is relevant. Hand that feeds applies and yet few seem to recognise that (by their own words/admission).
For someone (if I recall correctly, I maybe mistaken) who is a reformed remain voter who now just wants to get behind brexit you have some interestingly strong views on some subjects.
Stating that the Welsh public gets more from the EU than it pays in tax is not a misuse of stats, its a bloody fact! It is true that this doesn’t apply to the rest of the UK which is why it is relevant. Hand that feeds applies and yet few seem to recognise that (by their own words/admission).
Maybe they've realised that most of what they get from the EU comes from the UK in the first place?
k are we gonna cover off that and give 350 mill to the NHSWe are dooooooooomed dooooooomed I tell ya!!
///ajd said:
Stating that the Welsh public gets more from the EU than it pays in tax
states the above yet i am the one not "getting it" . for the last time ,the eu has no money of its own. it is quite possible the welsh could get more when we leave the eu as they will no longer be skimming the pile pre distribution. again, for clarity for the hard of thinking i say "possible" they could get more, with no increase in taxpayer contribution due to lack of cut for the eu.wc98 said:
///ajd said:
Stating that the Welsh public gets more from the EU than it pays in tax
states the above yet i am the one not "getting it" . for the last time ,the eu has no money of its own. it is quite possible the welsh could get more when we leave the eu as they will no longer be skimming the pile pre distribution. again, for clarity for the hard of thinking i say "possible" they could get more, with no increase in taxpayer contribution due to lack of cut for the eu.B'stard Child said:
wc98 said:
///ajd said:
Stating that the Welsh public gets more from the EU than it pays in tax
states the above yet i am the one not "getting it" . for the last time ,the eu has no money of its own. it is quite possible the welsh could get more when we leave the eu as they will no longer be skimming the pile pre distribution. again, for clarity for the hard of thinking i say "possible" they could get more, with no increase in taxpayer contribution due to lack of cut for the eu.
jjlynn27 said:
. Of course, it's not the question of being an expert, who needs them. (c) Gove & Co. Yes, unlike you I don't pretend to know everything about everything. The question of reasoning, the good old 'common sense' (c) Farage & Co. Now when you are done with your little dance, the facts remain the same. Those farmers are petrified, as they are now facing 'wtf, where are the subsidies going to come from', and 'oh f
k, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'So our farmers are petrified ??? not the ones I deal with the modern efficient productive ones ,they are looking forward ,
one thing is sure we all need food .. we don't need your constant drivel but it sure is amusing ,do keep posting
... ...jjlynn27 said:
Now when you are done with your little dance, the facts remain the same. Those farmers are petrified, as they are now facing 'wtf, where are the subsidies going to come from', and 'oh fk, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'
This is the whole problem with subsidies and protectionism, they protect the producer at the expense of the consumer.k, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'If farmers (or any other producers) are 'petrified' at the thought of their customers getting more choice because those customers might find they can get cheaper food, should they really be in business at all?
At least give them a chance to choose what to produce according to what the market demands as opposed to what the EU wants to subsidise.
Dr Jekyll said:
jjlynn27 said:
Now when you are done with your little dance, the facts remain the same. Those farmers are petrified, as they are now facing 'wtf, where are the subsidies going to come from', and 'oh fk, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'
This is the whole problem with subsidies and protectionism, they protect the producer at the expense of the consumer.k, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'If farmers (or any other producers) are 'petrified' at the thought of their customers getting more choice because those customers might find they can get cheaper food, should they really be in business at all?
At least give them a chance to choose what to produce according to what the market demands as opposed to what the EU wants to subsidise.
B'stard Child said:
wc98 said:
///ajd said:
Stating that the Welsh public gets more from the EU than it pays in tax
states the above yet i am the one not "getting it" . for the last time ,the eu has no money of its own. it is quite possible the welsh could get more when we leave the eu as they will no longer be skimming the pile pre distribution. again, for clarity for the hard of thinking i say "possible" they could get more, with no increase in taxpayer contribution due to lack of cut for the eu.jjlynn27 said:
Now when you are done with your little dance, the facts remain the same. Those farmers are petrified, as they are now facing 'wtf, where are the subsidies going to come from', and 'oh fk, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'
Should've gone to Specsavers, mate. Your petrified farmers say:k, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'NFU said:
For decades, UK farming has been subject to policies set at a pan-European level, implementing successive CAP reforms driven from the European stage. Once we leave the EU, we will have the opportunity to develop a new deal for British farmers and citizens – one in which farm businesses are provided with the incentives, rewards and means to become more profitable and resilient and to better meet the expectations and needs of society at large.
According to you, I'm claiming to know better than the NFU et. al. No, I'm just reading what they say. Something you seem to find difficult.You are of course right that they are worried about the transition - the Welsh farmers' paper linked talks again and again about a smooth transition and the need for the UK Government to put continuity plans in place:
Welsh Farmer said:
There are opportunities out there but we haven’t seem them yet. Still our biggest export market is Europe, and if we do lose that market then we will need something to replace it with.
You ask any farmer in Wales they’ll be worried about the future because there’s no getting around it, the Basic Payment Scheme provides a large amount of the profit of any farm, without that most farms would be unable to function.
That is not the same as wanting to be in the EU - that is being rightfully worried about change. You need to take your EU-tinted glasses off when you read things. I know the idea of subsidies makes Euro signs light up in your eyes, but not everyone who receives subsidies likes the situation they are in.You ask any farmer in Wales they’ll be worried about the future because there’s no getting around it, the Basic Payment Scheme provides a large amount of the profit of any farm, without that most farms would be unable to function.
But hey, you can redefine what I'm saying so you can take your myopic pot-shots at it if you like.
Dr Jekyll said:
jjlynn27 said:
Now when you are done with your little dance, the facts remain the same. Those farmers are petrified, as they are now facing 'wtf, where are the subsidies going to come from', and 'oh fk, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'
This is the whole problem with subsidies and protectionism, they protect the producer at the expense of the consumer.k, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'If farmers (or any other producers) are 'petrified' at the thought of their customers getting more choice because those customers might find they can get cheaper food, should they really be in business at all?
At least give them a chance to choose what to produce according to what the market demands as opposed to what the EU wants to subsidise.
Now, what do you do if other govt subsidise their industries, or, for example, do you protect steel industry against Chinese dumps?
jjlynn27 said:
Tuna said:
It's not a question of being an expert (though I know you put huge store on such epithets), it's a question of reasoning.
. Of course, it's not the question of being an expert, who needs them. (c) Gove & Co. Yes, unlike you I don't pretend to know everything about everything. The question of reasoning, the good old 'common sense' (c) Farage & Co. Say something Remainers disagree with and they cry out "You're not an expert!".
Respond that you'e not trying to be an expert and you get "You're denying experts!"
Say something actually based on what the experts are saying and you get, "I know better than you what the experts mean".
Not happy until they've elected someone to think for them. Who isn't you.
jjlynn27 said:
You are, unsurprisingly, missing the point. The above is what farmers themselves say. There were few on the radio talking that they were 'lied to' in order to secure their vote. If someone was lying to me, and I was naive enough to believe them, I'd probably be pretty pissed too.
Now, what do you do if other govt subsidise their industries, or, for example, do you protect steel industry against Chinese dumps?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-ross/farm-subs...Now, what do you do if other govt subsidise their industries, or, for example, do you protect steel industry against Chinese dumps?
What do you do if the Chinese dump cheap steel? You buy it and turn it into expensive high grade steel. If some idiot is willing to loose money on a globally available resource, you take advantage of it.
or... in jjlynn's world, you subsidise low grade steel production so that your industry is completely incapable of any sort of economic improvement.
You'd never guess his world is based of subsidies, would you?
Tuna said:
jjlynn27 said:
Now when you are done with your little dance, the facts remain the same. Those farmers are petrified, as they are now facing 'wtf, where are the subsidies going to come from', and 'oh fk, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'
Should've gone to Specsavers, mate. Your petrified farmers say:k, we had access to a protected market, and now we are going to compete with NZ where the sheer economies of scale are going to decimate us.'Tuna said:
NFU said:
For decades, UK farming has been subject to policies set at a pan-European level, implementing successive CAP reforms driven from the European stage. Once we leave the EU, we will have the opportunity to develop a new deal for British farmers and citizens – one in which farm businesses are provided with the incentives, rewards and means to become more profitable and resilient and to better meet the expectations and needs of society at large.
According to you, I'm claiming to know better than the NFU et. al. No, I'm just reading what they say. Something you seem to find difficult.They also said;
NFU said:
“Up and down the country, farmers are asking the questions we want decision makers to answer, such as ‘If we left the EU, would we have access to the European market?’ - The EU is the world’s biggest agricultural trader and for some sectors like lamb, it’s vital. Other questions include “What would a British version of the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) look like?” or “How would the Government guarantee fair competition for our farmers and a level playing field on which to compete?”
So yes, they are still looking for both subsidies and tariffs. Tuna said:
You are of course right that they are worried about the transition - the Welsh farmers' paper linked talks again and again about a smooth transition and the need for the UK Government to put continuity plans in place:
I never said that they 'want to be in the EU'. It's something else that you made up as a diversion to argue against. Welsh Farmer said:
There are opportunities out there but we haven’t seem them yet. Still our biggest export market is Europe, and if we do lose that market then we will need something to replace it with.
You ask any farmer in Wales they’ll be worried about the future because there’s no getting around it, the Basic Payment Scheme provides a large amount of the profit of any farm, without that most farms would be unable to function.
That is not the same as wanting to be in the EU - that is being rightfully worried about change. You need to take your EU-tinted glasses off when you read things. You ask any farmer in Wales they’ll be worried about the future because there’s no getting around it, the Basic Payment Scheme provides a large amount of the profit of any farm, without that most farms would be unable to function.
Tuna said:
I know the idea of subsidies makes Euro signs light up in your eyes, but not everyone who receives subsidies likes the situation they are in.
You don't know jack. You just have this, desperate need, to make up things.Tuna said:
But hey, you can redefine what I'm saying so you can take your myopic pot-shots at it if you like.
Tuna said:
jjlynn27 said:
You are, unsurprisingly, missing the point. The above is what farmers themselves say. There were few on the radio talking that they were 'lied to' in order to secure their vote. If someone was lying to me, and I was naive enough to believe them, I'd probably be pretty pissed too.
Now, what do you do if other govt subsidise their industries, or, for example, do you protect steel industry against Chinese dumps?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-ross/farm-subs...Now, what do you do if other govt subsidise their industries, or, for example, do you protect steel industry against Chinese dumps?
What do you do if the Chinese dump cheap steel? You buy it and turn it into expensive high grade steel. If some idiot is willing to loose money on a globally available resource, you take advantage of it.
Love it! Tuna said:
or... in jjlynn's world, you subsidise low grade steel production so that your industry is completely incapable of any sort of economic improvement.
You'd never guess his world is based of subsidies, would you?
You'd never guess his world is based of subsidies, would you?
You really need to look into your weird need to invent stuff.
Three replies to my post, as my son would say; 'Yes, that's triggered'.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff