The economic consequences of Brexit (Vol 2)
Discussion
///ajd said:
He is keeping the high skill high pay R&D jobs in the UK and farming out the low skill manufacture jobs. I don't think it is unreasonable to look at his brexit position with that in mind.
From a selfish point of view he is only exporting jobs that would be of no interest to me as an engineer, they are still in the UK. But looking more widely, there is a case to encourage all our engineering and manufacturing jobs -
Why?From a selfish point of view he is only exporting jobs that would be of no interest to me as an engineer, they are still in the UK. But looking more widely, there is a case to encourage all our engineering and manufacturing jobs -
Dr Jekyll said:
///ajd said:
He is keeping the high skill high pay R&D jobs in the UK and farming out the low skill manufacture jobs. I don't think it is unreasonable to look at his brexit position with that in mind.
From a selfish point of view he is only exporting jobs that would be of no interest to me as an engineer, they are still in the UK. But looking more widely, there is a case to encourage all our engineering and manufacturing jobs -
Why?From a selfish point of view he is only exporting jobs that would be of no interest to me as an engineer, they are still in the UK. But looking more widely, there is a case to encourage all our engineering and manufacturing jobs -
Not everyone has the skills or ability for high skill R&D jobs.
Shouldn't the country be encouraging employment to fit all levels of ability of the population?
I don't think you are saying "sod the car workers, they can work in MacDonalds", are you?
I thought Brexit was partly supposed to be about the little guy? (not that I think it Brexit helps them - a Dyson/Minford Brexit does the opposite)
Eddie Strohacker said:
Never ceases to surprise one, the Dyson love when his last intervention essentially boiles down to a plea tpo government to abolish corporation tax & workers rights. It's rich of certain posters to accuse others of misrepresentation when Dyson is discussed so one sidedly. Too much partisanship, to little cui bono curiosity.
In this particular case, I work alongside people who helped develop some of the more interesting bits of Dyson technology (which gives some insight into why something 'simple' ends up costing so much to develop - if you want to legitimately sell a global product, the complexities of safety testing are quite insane. But that's another rant on the downside of globalisation). I don't necessarily subscribe to all of Dyson's views. However, I respect the fact that his business has remained successful for over three decades and continues to develop new technology. You could argue Dyson's the nearest thing we have to Apple or Tesla, yet the British response to someone doing well is to do them down and dismiss their opinions at every opportunity. It winds me up that we as a nation are so relentlessly negative about our own achievements - we buy Porsche over Lotus, our entrepreneurs are 'boffins' or 'financial opportunists', we're ashamed of making money and boy do we hate success. There's a reason the US breeds successes like Tesla, Uber, Amazon, Google, Apple and we content ourselves with making cars for Nissan and Honda and once being vaguely relevant in mobile devices.
And you're doing exactly the same - you've interpreted his comments in the worst light because in your view his motives can't possibly be good.
I'd actually argue that some of his views on employment are fair (and it's worth noting, they're views he's had and spoken about for years). I'm currently in a position where I could employ one, possibly two techies to cover some successful projects - but there's no way in hell I can commit to that because the current protections for workers double or even triple my risk. Now you can paint that as protecting workers from exploitation, or as preventing businesses from taking risks. What do you think?
I'll hold my hands up to taking the opposing position from //adj's original post - for a reason. This hand wringing self harm has to be challenged. But he, and you paint this stuff as black and white 'good' versus 'evil', and will not entertain for one moment that maybe the issues are a bit more complicated than you want to paint.
I haven’t painted it as black and white at all. I’ve outlined both sides.
You on the other hand want to defend him at all costs.
It is ironic in the extreme to bring up the “hate success” culture in the UK - I have seen this first hand and feel it played a role in brexit being a protest vote against the elite metro successful.
You on the other hand want to defend him at all costs.
It is ironic in the extreme to bring up the “hate success” culture in the UK - I have seen this first hand and feel it played a role in brexit being a protest vote against the elite metro successful.
///ajd said:
What is wrong with manufacturing jobs?
Nothing, but there is something wrong with low skill low paid jobs for people who could otherwise be earning more and have security through high skills.///ajd said:
Not everyone has the skills or ability for high skill R&D jobs.
Shouldn't the country be encouraging employment to fit all levels of ability of the population?
The availability of high skilled jobs make it worthwhile to acquire those skills.Shouldn't the country be encouraging employment to fit all levels of ability of the population?
///ajd said:
I don't think you are saying "sod the car workers, they can work in MacDonalds", are you?
No, I'm saying they would probably prefer to be automotive engineers.///ajd said:
I thought Brexit was partly supposed to be about the little guy? (not that I think it Brexit helps them - a Dyson/Minford Brexit does the opposite)
It certainly does help the little guy. Unless you assume that us 'little guys' must stick to menial work and leave the decent jobs for you.///ajd said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Apparently Mr Dyson has acquired a disused RAF airfield for the purpose of constructing a new electric car, so effectively he is bringing some of his production back to the UK.
PS Just realised - does this mean M4 Karting is on borrowed time? 
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 18th November 11:41
I see you've been busy 'googling' stuff about Dyson after being supremely shown up and embarrassed by Tuna earlier in the thread.
Your faux admiration and respect of the man and what he's done and doing for the UK is plain for all to see with your subtle and underhanded digs cleverly worded through all of your posts about the subject.
Classic ///ajd rhetoric, we've had similar from you for 14/15 months over immigration, your subtle sly and sneery posts tarring any Leave voters as racist xenophobes,you'll claim it as not being the case but you were rumbled many months ago, so the denials are pointless
Dr Jekyll said:
///ajd said:
What is wrong with manufacturing jobs?
Nothing, but there is something wrong with low skill low paid jobs for people who could otherwise be earning more and have security through high skills.///ajd said:
Not everyone has the skills or ability for high skill R&D jobs.
Shouldn't the country be encouraging employment to fit all levels of ability of the population?
The availability of high skilled jobs make it worthwhile to acquire those skills.Shouldn't the country be encouraging employment to fit all levels of ability of the population?
///ajd said:
I don't think you are saying "sod the car workers, they can work in MacDonalds", are you?
No, I'm saying they would probably prefer to be automotive engineers.///ajd said:
I thought Brexit was partly supposed to be about the little guy? (not that I think it Brexit helps them - a Dyson/Minford Brexit does the opposite)
It certainly does help the little guy. Unless you assume that us 'little guys' must stick to menial work and leave the decent jobs for you.cookie118 said:
Tuna said:
But, you're so keen to discredit anyone who might have a different viewpoint to yours, that you'd ignore all of that, wouldn't you?
Hmm-that point very much goes both ways on here.You only have to look at the way the news from Aston and Honda this week was treated on the various brexit threads by the leavers to see that.
It's a question of applying some critical thinking to the points being made, rather than quoting stuff from people who support your view without a thought, or dismissing people who take the other view 'because they're evil'.
///ajd said:
What do you think stops a production line worker becomiing an engineer today?
The time and cost of training vs the chances of a job at the end of it. The same reason anyone doesn't retrain as an engineer or anything else.What I take issue with is the notion that if school or college leavers find plenty of high skilled high paid jobs available and correspondingly fewer low skilled jobs, that is somehow a bad thing. As if those who 'would have' gone for the low skilled jobs will somehow be unemployable. I was born in an area where there were plenty of coal mining jobs available. A few years later my parent moved to Surrey. No coal mines! I was doomed! Well no. I got an office job with similar starting pay to coal mining, much better pay after a few years, better skills, and significantly less chance of a mine shaft falling on my head.
You seem to be the kind of person who thinks there is some kind of nobility in crap jobs. Providing of course it's other people doing them not you.
Edited by Dr Jekyll on Saturday 18th November 15:11
Tuna said:
cookie118 said:
Tuna said:
But, you're so keen to discredit anyone who might have a different viewpoint to yours, that you'd ignore all of that, wouldn't you?
Hmm-that point very much goes both ways on here.You only have to look at the way the news from Aston and Honda this week was treated on the various brexit threads by the leavers to see that.
It's a question of applying some critical thinking to the points being made, rather than quoting stuff from people who support your view without a thought, or dismissing people who take the other view 'because they're evil'.
Dr Jekyll said:
///ajd said:
What do you think stops a production line worker becomiing an engineer today?
The time and cost of training vs the chances of a job at the end of it. The same reason anyone doesn't retrain as an engineer or anything else.We have a shortage of good engineers in this country - why isn't everyone doing it? It is reasonably well paid.
What do you do for a living?
Do you think all manufacturing jobs are beneath the UK workforce now?
///ajd said:
So you think the only barrier/reason anyone doesn't qualify themselves as a professional engineer is time and cost?
Yes.///ajd said:
We have a shortage of good engineers in this country - why isn't everyone doing it? It is reasonably well paid.
Because the time and cost is not worth it for them considering the opportunities available and what they are doing now.///ajd said:
What do you do for a living?
Software development.///ajd said:
Do you think all manufacturing jobs are beneath the UK workforce now?
No. Do you think all engineering jobs are too good for us?///ajd said:
Dr Jekyll said:
///ajd said:
What do you think stops a production line worker becomiing an engineer today?
The time and cost of training vs the chances of a job at the end of it. The same reason anyone doesn't retrain as an engineer or anything else.We have a shortage of good engineers in this country - why isn't everyone doing it? It is reasonably well paid.
What do you do for a living?
Do you think all manufacturing jobs are beneath the UK workforce now?
I run two firms on three sites. One of which is in engineering and employees both skilled and unskilled. We also have three very promising (all on different intake years) apprentice engineers. I can tell you, without the very slightest shadow of a doubt, nature and nurture play at least as much a part as academic education. One of the apprentices is now up to the point of not only being about third or fourth best welder (given #1 is time served, fully coded and qualified to weld anything from thin gauge stainless or aluminium, right up to pressure certified, thick gauge boiler pressure vessels and rates this lad as the best he's seen, that's no mean feat) and also assists in managing his section,
The eldest apprentice is now capable of setting and running the exact same make and model of CNC multi-axis machine tool as you would find in McLaren's works.
However, we also have guys who are good workers, but will simply never progress beyond a certain level which, is the apex of their potential. No amount of education or training will alter that. They are not low skilled for lack of opportunity.
What's not being grasped right now, with regard to UK employment is the current and projected impact of the compulsory workplace pension schemes. This is going to bite, especially with SMES, with low skilled workers, and will also compress real pay across the board IMHO.
Tuna said:
Except the 'news from Honda' wasn't actually news from Honda was it? It was an idiot on Twitter who badly screwed up the figures and then leapt to a completely illogical conclusion.
It's a question of applying some critical thinking to the points being made, rather than quoting stuff from people who support your view without a thought, or dismissing people who take the other view 'because they're evil'.
How about the AM news then?It's a question of applying some critical thinking to the points being made, rather than quoting stuff from people who support your view without a thought, or dismissing people who take the other view 'because they're evil'.
I don’t think I have seen anyone describe dyson as evil.
Using your quote above though-should we not question why he might be in favour of brexit?
Digga said:
'm with and on this; it is vastly over-simplistic to think the mere availability of high-skill, high-pay jobs is the only barrier to more profitable employment for British workers.
I run two firms on three sites. One of which is in engineering and employees both skilled and unskilled. We also have three very promising (all on different intake years) apprentice engineers. I can tell you, without the very slightest shadow of a doubt, nature and nurture play at least as much a part as academic education. One of the apprentices is now up to the point of not only being about third or fourth best welder (given #1 is time served, fully coded and qualified to weld anything from thin gauge stainless or aluminium, right up to pressure certified, thick gauge boiler pressure vessels and rates this lad as the best he's seen, that's no mean feat) and also assists in managing his section,
The eldest apprentice is now capable of setting and running the exact same make and model of CNC multi-axis machine tool as you would find in McLaren's works.
However, we also have guys who are good workers, but will simply never progress beyond a certain level which, is the apex of their potential. No amount of education or training will alter that. They are not low skilled for lack of opportunity.
What's not being grasped right now, with regard to UK employment is the current and projected impact of the compulsory workplace pension schemes. This is going to bite, especially with SMES, with low skilled workers, and will also compress real pay across the board IMHO.
Exactly. Well put.I run two firms on three sites. One of which is in engineering and employees both skilled and unskilled. We also have three very promising (all on different intake years) apprentice engineers. I can tell you, without the very slightest shadow of a doubt, nature and nurture play at least as much a part as academic education. One of the apprentices is now up to the point of not only being about third or fourth best welder (given #1 is time served, fully coded and qualified to weld anything from thin gauge stainless or aluminium, right up to pressure certified, thick gauge boiler pressure vessels and rates this lad as the best he's seen, that's no mean feat) and also assists in managing his section,
The eldest apprentice is now capable of setting and running the exact same make and model of CNC multi-axis machine tool as you would find in McLaren's works.
However, we also have guys who are good workers, but will simply never progress beyond a certain level which, is the apex of their potential. No amount of education or training will alter that. They are not low skilled for lack of opportunity.
What's not being grasped right now, with regard to UK employment is the current and projected impact of the compulsory workplace pension schemes. This is going to bite, especially with SMES, with low skilled workers, and will also compress real pay across the board IMHO.
cookie118 said:
How about the AM news then?
I don't find myself agreeing with Neil Hamilton very often, but what a load of nonsense. Do you seriously give any credibility to the idea that type approvals will be withdrawn? If you wanted to start a trade war, I guess that would be the way to go about it.It's important to remember that 'no deal' doesn't mean we stop trading and pull up the drawbridge. It means we fall back to WTO rules as a back stop for trade arrangements. That means individual countries in the EU can do business with us, and us with them - and we can set our own tariffs, so long as they are less than the maximum set by the WTO.
It's also worth pointing out that their CEO has been optimistic about Brexit: http://www.cityam.com/250764/aston-martin-chief-ex...
And that they recently had a successful trade visit to Japan: http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/business/man...
It's been mentioned before, that we should expect a fair amount of sabre rattling from all industries - negotiations of a new relationship with the EU open up the possibilities of all sorts of benefits that were previously unavailable. And, yes, we should ensure that type approvals are part of the deal, but I'd be really surprised if there was actually a legal basis for being able to retrospectively remove type approvals. Their finance officer though seems to have rather over-egged the pudding on this one.
Edited to add: Actually, in the context of Dyson, what we should beware of is letting EU countries game the system. There has been some controversy over German vacuum manufacturers 'tweaking' the energy efficiency certification to make it rather more favourable to bagged than bagless cleaners. Rather like dieselgate, the 'level playing field' rhetoric is a bit thinner in practise than some officials would like to pretend.
Edited by Tuna on Saturday 18th November 17:36
///ajd said:
Do you think all manufacturing jobs are beneath the UK workforce now?
'all'? - black and white as ever.You do realise this is why people have been banging on about productivity recently? There really are jobs that are beneath the UK workforce now - and it's not about how smart they are, it's about how smart their workplace is.
Tuna said:
///ajd said:
Do you think all manufacturing jobs are beneath the UK workforce now?
'all'? - black and white as ever.You do realise this is why people have been banging on about productivity recently? There really are jobs that are beneath the UK workforce now - and it's not about how smart they are, it's about how smart their workplace is.
Which manufacturing jobs are beneath the UK workforce?
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