The economic consequences of Brexit (Vol 2)
Discussion
///ajd said:
It is still surprising to see how some brexiteers don’t seem to realise that tariffs are a barrier to incoming exports, applied deliberately to protect domestic interests.
Hence when we face barriers externally, it affects exports.
Do these brexiteers realise that our exporters need tariff free trade into foriegn countries and notably the EU?
How many times do we have to explain protectionism to you? Personally I think the domestic coffee growers of the UK would be better served by subsidies than making every coffee drinker in the UK pay extra for their morning drink.Hence when we face barriers externally, it affects exports.
Do these brexiteers realise that our exporters need tariff free trade into foriegn countries and notably the EU?
The whole point of lowering tariffs is that we don't want to get into a war of protectionism and ever rising barriers to trade.
Why on earth do you think that only Remainers have the deep insight that we want to trade as freely as possible with foreign countries, including the EU?
sidicks said:
///ajd said:
Total EU export trade is 1.8Bn. About 300m to UK, or 16%
Exports to the UK from the EU are dropping, just as ours are to the EU, due to growing external markets.
So why would we constrain our ability to trade with non-EU countries on the terms we need?Exports to the UK from the EU are dropping, just as ours are to the EU, due to growing external markets.
You previously claimed:
///adj said:
Do these brexiteers realise that our exporters need tariff free trade into foreign countries and notably the EU?
What is currently stopping us negotiating 'tariff free trade into non-EU countries"?RoW trade is a secondary issue to improve - note we are still exporting loads whilst in the EU to RoW, and now that Liam Fox has said our businesses are are lazy and not going to export more to RoW even if he gets new deals - so that’s a busted myth from his own mouth.
Some don’t seem to recognise how important tariff / barrier free trade into the EU is for the UK.
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 25th November 13:32
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 25th November 13:34
Tuna said:
How many times do we have to explain protectionism to you? Personally I think the domestic coffee growers of the UK would be better served by subsidies than making every coffee drinker in the UK pay extra for their morning drink.
The whole point of lowering tariffs is that we don't want to get into a war of protectionism and ever rising barriers to trade.
Why on earth do you think that only Remainers have the deep insight that we want to trade as freely as possible with foreign countries, including the EU?
Aren't internal subsidies against WTO rules though?The whole point of lowering tariffs is that we don't want to get into a war of protectionism and ever rising barriers to trade.
Why on earth do you think that only Remainers have the deep insight that we want to trade as freely as possible with foreign countries, including the EU?
I've asked it many times, if free trade what such a utopia why isn't everybody doing it?
Tuna said:
///ajd said:
It is still surprising to see how some brexiteers don’t seem to realise that tariffs are a barrier to incoming exports, applied deliberately to protect domestic interests.
Hence when we face barriers externally, it affects exports.
Do these brexiteers realise that our exporters need tariff free trade into foriegn countries and notably the EU?
How many times do we have to explain protectionism to you? Personally I think the domestic coffee growers of the UK would be better served by subsidies than making every coffee drinker in the UK pay extra for their morning drink.Hence when we face barriers externally, it affects exports.
Do these brexiteers realise that our exporters need tariff free trade into foriegn countries and notably the EU?
The whole point of lowering tariffs is that we don't want to get into a war of protectionism and ever rising barriers to trade.
Why on earth do you think that only Remainers have the deep insight that we want to trade as freely as possible with foreign countries, including the EU?
Yes or No?
Tuna said:
It seems hard to grasp, but tariffs hurt the country that applies them,
<snip>
which is why the WTO seeks to limit them rather than encourage them.
Been out. Was going to say that the first statement is obviously not right - see the second (and Trump's tariffs on Bombardier). But others have done it already. <snip>
which is why the WTO seeks to limit them rather than encourage them.
///ajd said:
Total EU export trade is 1.8Trn. About 300bn to UK, or 16%
Exports to the UK from the EU are dropping, just as ours are to the EU, due to growing external markets. So it’s not as if Europe are shrinking as swivel eyed loons would have some believe. Their GDP is growing faster than us now, since Brexit remember.
Our exports to the EU are 44%
So it’s 44% of our exports
Versus 16% of theirs.
Who has the bigger stake in getting a deal?
Take your time.
I think if you want to do this properly you need to express your percentages in terms of the whole market, not just exports. You also need to consider the make up of imports, because not all of it is harmful if it is diminished. Eg if people have to buy Jaguars instead of BMW then that's actually very good for the UK, because theres no economic cost to people having to compromise. Exports to the UK from the EU are dropping, just as ours are to the EU, due to growing external markets. So it’s not as if Europe are shrinking as swivel eyed loons would have some believe. Their GDP is growing faster than us now, since Brexit remember.
Our exports to the EU are 44%
So it’s 44% of our exports
Versus 16% of theirs.
Who has the bigger stake in getting a deal?
Take your time.
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 25th November 13:18
No idea what the numbers look like, but you're not presenting the whole story.
sidicks said:
///ajd said:
Is it important for our exporters to have tariff free access into the EU?
Yes or No?
Is it important for our exporters to have tariff free access into non-EU countries?Yes or No?
Yes or No?
Tariff free access to RoW is not guaranteed if we leave the EU.
paulrockliffe said:
I think if you want to do this properly you need to express your percentages in terms of the whole market, not just exports. You also need to consider the make up of imports, because not all of it is harmful if it is diminished. Eg if people have to buy Jaguars instead of BMW then that's actually very good for the UK, because theres no economic cost to people having to compromise.
No idea what the numbers look like, but you're not presenting the whole story.
So you have no idea why the numbers are wrong, but they don’t present the whole story.No idea what the numbers look like, but you're not presenting the whole story.
Interesting, I’m seeing a pattern.
How is total EU export / EU export to UK as a %, and comparing that to total UK export / UK export to EU as % not exactly what should be compared?
It seems to be wrong in your mind as it undermines the argument that the EU need us more than we need them. Sorry to bring facts to the table.
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 25th November 13:46
///ajd said:
So you,be no idea why the numbers are wrong, but they don’t present the whole story.
Interesting, I’m seeing a pattern.
How is total EU export / EU export to UK as a %, and comparing that to total UK export / UK export to EU as % not exactly what should be compared?
It seems to be wrong in your mind as it undermines the argument that the EU need us more than we need them. Sorry to bring facts to the table.
Who is making this argument?Interesting, I’m seeing a pattern.
How is total EU export / EU export to UK as a %, and comparing that to total UK export / UK export to EU as % not exactly what should be compared?
It seems to be wrong in your mind as it undermines the argument that the EU need us more than we need them. Sorry to bring facts to the table.
///ajd said:
So you,be no idea why the numbers are wrong, but they don’t present the whole story.
Interesting, I’m seeing a pattern.
How is total EU export / EU export to UK as a %, and comparing that to total UK export / UK export to EU as % not exactly what should be compared?
It seems to be wrong in your mind as it undermines the argument that the EU need us more than we need them. Sorry to bring facts to the table.
Ideally the value of exports should be compared to GDP I would think.Interesting, I’m seeing a pattern.
How is total EU export / EU export to UK as a %, and comparing that to total UK export / UK export to EU as % not exactly what should be compared?
It seems to be wrong in your mind as it undermines the argument that the EU need us more than we need them. Sorry to bring facts to the table.
Greg66 said:
Tuna said:
It seems hard to grasp, but tariffs hurt the country that applies them,
<snip>
which is why the WTO seeks to limit them rather than encourage them.
Been out. Was going to say that the first statement is obviously not right - see the second (and Trump's tariffs on Bombardier). But others have done it already. <snip>
which is why the WTO seeks to limit them rather than encourage them.
a) Add no tariff - and benefit from a good we can get cheaply elsewhere
b) Add enough of a tariff that we can have a 'competitive' local market in phone manufacture
Tariffs hurt us. They might slightly reduce the number of foreign phones (cars, chocolate, whatever) we choose to buy, but we're just one export market to those producers (as the Remain crew keep reminding us) - so why should they care if we turn phones into 'luxury goods'? They can still sell to everyone else and watch the UK go back to tin cans and string.
And it you think that tariffs improve trade, try reading this
https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2016/08/18/eu-...
or this:
http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/how-the-eu-starves-africa/
PurpleMoonlight said:
I've asked it many times, if free trade what such a utopia why isn't everybody doing it?
Mainly because lobby groups and hand wringing apologists fight to 'protect' internal markets.There are of course strategic and nostalgic reasons to preserve certain industries, but the focus should be on supporting them directly rather than indirectly hurting every last consumer in the name of protectionism.
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