Can PH solve the missing Honington airman?
Discussion
condor said:
At that time the bin lorry had just been emptied, so no problem having a quick search.
11kg! that's nothing in weight compared to a normal load - equivalent to a few bags of sugar! or a couple of new born babies!
Initially we were told it was stuff for recycling - lightweight cardboard etc11kg! that's nothing in weight compared to a normal load - equivalent to a few bags of sugar! or a couple of new born babies!
However it's an eye opener rereading the first few posts of this thread - guess who was trying to find out what reasons they might have for not checking the bin
condor said:
At that time the bin lorry had just been emptied, so no problem having a quick search.
11kg! that's nothing in weight compared to a normal load - equivalent to a few bags of sugar! or a couple of new born babies!
Have you ever been to a landfill?11kg! that's nothing in weight compared to a normal load - equivalent to a few bags of sugar! or a couple of new born babies!
How many trucks drop there every day?
Where did that truck drop its load?
How many trucks have dropped a load in the same place since?
The search parameters would be impossible to set, there's no such thing as a quick search there so sadly, sometimes you have no choice but to rely on a third parties info, even if its a bit sh!t.
I've had the misfortune of searching for a body in a landfill about 4 years ago, they could tell us roughly where the truck had tipped earlier THAT day, it still took us 3 weeks and that was only a small area!
It seems to me that it should be clear to any sensible person that 11Kg is not a lot of weight for one of those bins. One wonders whether the police questioned the store(s) using that bin to see what waste had been put in it since the last collection. How much effort would it have taken for a (junior, obvs) police officer to jump in a bin and see what weight that truck's sensor reported ? Could be an intermittent sensor problem of course. Could the police have located the phone in the landfill ? I'd have thought they might try to do that even if they believed the missing person was not there, just to get hold of the phone to search it for other info. Presumably all such questions will be addressed by the inevitable inquiry.
Before jumping to conclusions there's still something else not quite right
Wasnt the phone traced to the recycling site north of BSE?
The landfill site theyre checking is over near Cambridge
Would the phone have been treated as a recyclable while the body was only suitable for landfill?
Wasnt the phone traced to the recycling site north of BSE?
The landfill site theyre checking is over near Cambridge
Would the phone have been treated as a recyclable while the body was only suitable for landfill?
Pesty said:
Greendubber said:
And I'm sure the police thought similar but if the bin company are adamant their data is correct what can you do?
Search the entire landfill? Never ever going to happen.
No just where they were dumping that day.Search the entire landfill? Never ever going to happen.
How big is the area?
What quantity of waste is dropped in a day? If its anything like ours its a LOT.
Its just not as easy as just chucking a couple of bobbies on the heap and getting them to have a cursory poke about. You need to set the depth of search, parameters, somewhere to securely store all searched rubbish, appropriately trained search officers etc.
You have to give the OIC total assurance that once its searched there is no possibility of body being there because if you just chuck a couple of bobbies on it, give it a quick once over and leave and and body is later found we all know how bad that looks.
You either search it properly or you dont search it at all.
Greendubber said:
How many other trucks emptied there?
How big is the area?
What quantity of waste is dropped in a day? If its anything like ours its a LOT.
Its just not as easy as just chucking a couple of bobbies on the heap and getting them to have a cursory poke about. You need to set the depth of search, parameters, somewhere to securely store all searched rubbish, appropriately trained search officers etc.
You have to give the OIC total assurance that once its searched there is no possibility of body being there because if you just chuck a couple of bobbies on it, give it a quick once over and leave and and body is later found we all know how bad that looks.
You either search it properly or you dont search it at all.
Youre forgetting that policing these days is all computer and desk based - they wont have more than a couple available to do poking around. How big is the area?
What quantity of waste is dropped in a day? If its anything like ours its a LOT.
Its just not as easy as just chucking a couple of bobbies on the heap and getting them to have a cursory poke about. You need to set the depth of search, parameters, somewhere to securely store all searched rubbish, appropriately trained search officers etc.
You have to give the OIC total assurance that once its searched there is no possibility of body being there because if you just chuck a couple of bobbies on it, give it a quick once over and leave and and body is later found we all know how bad that looks.
You either search it properly or you dont search it at all.
As we've seen it'll be intelligence led.
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 8th March 21:49
saaby93 said:
Greendubber said:
How many other trucks emptied there?
How big is the area?
What quantity of waste is dropped in a day? If its anything like ours its a LOT.
Its just not as easy as just chucking a couple of bobbies on the heap and getting them to have a cursory poke about. You need to set the depth of search, parameters, somewhere to securely store all searched rubbish, appropriately trained search officers etc.
You have to give the OIC total assurance that once its searched there is no possibility of body being there because if you just chuck a couple of bobbies on it, give it a quick once over and leave and and body is later found we all know how bad that looks.
You either search it properly or you dont search it at all.
Youre forgetting that policing these days is all computer and desk based - they wont have more than a couple available to do poking around. It'll be intelligence led.How big is the area?
What quantity of waste is dropped in a day? If its anything like ours its a LOT.
Its just not as easy as just chucking a couple of bobbies on the heap and getting them to have a cursory poke about. You need to set the depth of search, parameters, somewhere to securely store all searched rubbish, appropriately trained search officers etc.
You have to give the OIC total assurance that once its searched there is no possibility of body being there because if you just chuck a couple of bobbies on it, give it a quick once over and leave and and body is later found we all know how bad that looks.
You either search it properly or you dont search it at all.
I work on a support unit that contains 40 licenced search specialists and 5 police search advisors, its my bread and butter and we're doing it day in, day out. Each force has specialists for just this reason but as you correctly said any search has to be intel led and if the intels saying he wasnt in the bin, theres your answer.
Edited by Greendubber on Wednesday 8th March 21:53
OK Greendubber - can you explain why the first couple of pages of this thread ( dated 28 dec 2016) all think the bin/landfill site is the likely place the body is? and that is where the Police refused to look and now, a few months later, that is where the body is likely to be? The lightweight excuse of the bin load was also questioned as a mistake straight away.
Don't say...'with hindsight'...
Don't say...'with hindsight'...
condor said:
OK Greendubber - can you explain why the first couple of pages of this thread ( dated 28 dec 2016) all think the bin/landfill site is the likely place the body is? and that is where the Police refused to look and now, a few months later, that is where the body is likely to be? The lightweight excuse of the bin load was also questioned as a mistake straight away.
Don't say...'with hindsight'...
No, because I'm not privy to all the info. Don't say...'with hindsight'...
Greendubber said:
It really isnt.
I work on a support unit that contains 40 licenced search specialists and 5 police search advisors, its my bread and butter and we're doing it day in, day out. Each force has specialists for just this reason but as you correctly said any search has to be intel led and if the intels saying he wasnt in the bin, theres your answer.
Intel led is one thing. Assuming any individual piece of intel is above question when you don't have any other answers is another.I work on a support unit that contains 40 licenced search specialists and 5 police search advisors, its my bread and butter and we're doing it day in, day out. Each force has specialists for just this reason but as you correctly said any search has to be intel led and if the intels saying he wasnt in the bin, theres your answer.
Greendubber said:
condor said:
At that time the bin lorry had just been emptied, so no problem having a quick search.
11kg! that's nothing in weight compared to a normal load - equivalent to a few bags of sugar! or a couple of new born babies!
Have you ever been to a landfill?11kg! that's nothing in weight compared to a normal load - equivalent to a few bags of sugar! or a couple of new born babies!
How many trucks drop there every day?
Where did that truck drop its load?
How many trucks have dropped a load in the same place since?
The search parameters would be impossible to set, there's no such thing as a quick search there so sadly, sometimes you have no choice but to rely on a third parties info, even if its a bit sh!t.
I've had the misfortune of searching for a body in a landfill about 4 years ago, they could tell us roughly where the truck had tipped earlier THAT day, it still took us 3 weeks and that was only a small area!
Disastrous said:
1). It's not hindsight when f
king EVRYBODY said it beforehand.
It's hindsight bias to think a course of action was more obvious after the fact. king EVRYBODY said it beforehand.IIRC they even forensically examined the bin even with the 11 KG information. After the weight and that being negative, I'm not sure how they'd justify the cost of such resources needed to undertake such a search.
Disastrous said:
2). If EVERYBODY thinks you should have done something, then you should have.
Lots of people think the police should take certain actions in lots of scenarios. That doesn't mean they're right. Disastrous said:
3). You are defending it by disallowing anyone to criticise how the investigation has been handled.
Yes, I'm defending it by 'disallowing anyone to criticise'. That's a little tenuous. I've said there may be errors several times now. Disastrous said:
Frankly, the facts are irrelevant here.
The mindset of those who likely to jump to conclusions. mickmcpaddy said:
On the other hand its not a lost set of car keys they are looking for its a human being, who might not even have been dead at the time. Maybe all the workers sat in comfy speed camera vans could have been reassigned to search.
The guy who has apparently been crushed and incinerated might have been alive? He wasn't reported missing for several days which means the phone work wouldn't have been done for a while, either. Speed camera workers aren't trained search officers the last time I checked.
DamienB said:
No doubt you'd consider it better to have a cup of tea rather than do any investigating, doesn't make either consideration a good one.
I'm not sure what you mean. I think it's more diversion away from the silly things you originally said which were corrected. I note that the decision to search the landfill site is expected to produce the body. What I would not overlook is that this investigation will have been reviewed numerous times, probably on a daily basis, by senior officers, detectives, search advisors and beat officers with a good nose for tracking down the missing.
The investigators will have been privvy to the full facts, every piece of information, and that we, the public, do not have anywhere near their level of understanding on the case. It is apparent that this matter has been treat with a high level of concern from the beginning. If the decision was made not to search the landfill site earlier, that will be backed up with a rationale, as mandated by the accountability we expect of the police.
Even searching freshly dumped waste is a massive undertaking, and a diversion of resources that could be looking elsewhere if credible information points in that directive. It's easy to pontificate with a basic grasp of the facts but I would be inclined to believe that the real investigators know much more about the case than we do.
The investigators will have been privvy to the full facts, every piece of information, and that we, the public, do not have anywhere near their level of understanding on the case. It is apparent that this matter has been treat with a high level of concern from the beginning. If the decision was made not to search the landfill site earlier, that will be backed up with a rationale, as mandated by the accountability we expect of the police.
Even searching freshly dumped waste is a massive undertaking, and a diversion of resources that could be looking elsewhere if credible information points in that directive. It's easy to pontificate with a basic grasp of the facts but I would be inclined to believe that the real investigators know much more about the case than we do.
Loyly said:
It's easy to pontificate with a basic grasp of the facts but I would be inclined to believe that the real investigators know much more about the case than we do.
Or it's been a total desk job mess up relying on one piece of false evidence 
Once youve discounted all the probable evidence, it's time to look at the other evidence no matter how improbable
Anyway he might not be there after all
Loyly said:
I note that the decision to search the landfill site is expected to produce the body. What I would not overlook is that this investigation will have been reviewed numerous times, probably on a daily basis, by senior officers, detectives, search advisors and beat officers with a good nose for tracking down the missing.
The investigators will have been privvy to the full facts, every piece of information, and that we, the public, do not have anywhere near their level of understanding on the case. It is apparent that this matter has been treat with a high level of concern from the beginning. If the decision was made not to search the landfill site earlier, that will be backed up with a rationale, as mandated by the accountability we expect of the police.
Even searching freshly dumped waste is a massive undertaking, and a diversion of resources that could be looking elsewhere if credible information points in that directive. It's easy to pontificate with a basic grasp of the facts but I would be inclined to believe that the real investigators know much more about the case than we do.
I'm sure a bunch of people on a car forum know better. The investigators will have been privvy to the full facts, every piece of information, and that we, the public, do not have anywhere near their level of understanding on the case. It is apparent that this matter has been treat with a high level of concern from the beginning. If the decision was made not to search the landfill site earlier, that will be backed up with a rationale, as mandated by the accountability we expect of the police.
Even searching freshly dumped waste is a massive undertaking, and a diversion of resources that could be looking elsewhere if credible information points in that directive. It's easy to pontificate with a basic grasp of the facts but I would be inclined to believe that the real investigators know much more about the case than we do.
saaby93 said:
Before jumping to conclusions there's still something else not quite right
Wasnt the phone traced to the recycling site north of BSE?
The landfill site theyre checking is over near Cambridge
Would the phone have been treated as a recyclable while the body was only suitable for landfill?
That's how I read the press reports - they are different landfill sites. The phone was traced to Barton Mills near BsE, the police are now searching Milton, north of Cambridge. I haven't seen any explanation as to why that is.Wasnt the phone traced to the recycling site north of BSE?
The landfill site theyre checking is over near Cambridge
Would the phone have been treated as a recyclable while the body was only suitable for landfill?
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