Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 4
Discussion
Was Sagan a warmist? If so it would have been a natural alliance. There's some CS quote warning about charlatanism floating around but as often happens it turns out to be ironic.
“O’Leary started to examine some of Carl’s work. He said that the famous “Face” in Cydonia on Mars — photographed by Viking in 1975, this enormous formation (about a mile across) resembled a human face and created a major buzz at the time — was tampered with by Sagan before being released to the public.”
“O’Leary started to examine some of Carl’s work. He said that the famous “Face” in Cydonia on Mars — photographed by Viking in 1975, this enormous formation (about a mile across) resembled a human face and created a major buzz at the time — was tampered with by Sagan before being released to the public.”
Sagan colleague and former NASA astronaut Cornell and Princeton physicist OLeary said:
It was very, very disappointing to me, because not only was Carl wrong, he also fudged data. He published a picture of the “Face” in Parade Magazine, a popular article, saying that the “Face” was just a natural formation, but he doctored the picture to make it not look like a face.
Data tampering / data fudging / doctoring images, it's an appalling state of affairs but faithfully familiar to followers of the climate fairytales. 
As was predicted, the Trump administration is seeking to limit funding for science that doesn't fit their agenda:
http://www.nature.com/news/us-energy-agency-asked-...
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/doe-denies-...
https://www.wired.com/story/usda-clamps-down-on-st...
http://www.nature.com/news/us-energy-agency-asked-...
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/doe-denies-...
Department of Energy request said:
“I have been asked to contact you to update the wording in your proposal abstract to remove words such as 'global warming' or 'climate change
...
we have to meet the President's budget language restrictions
'”
And here's more political interference:...
we have to meet the President's budget language restrictions
'”
https://www.wired.com/story/usda-clamps-down-on-st...
turbobloke said:
Was Sagan a warmist? If so it would have been a natural alliance. There's some CS quote warning about charlatanism floating around but as often happens it turns out to be ironic.
“O’Leary started to examine some of Carl’s work. He said that the famous “Face” in Cydonia on Mars — photographed by Viking in 1975, this enormous formation (about a mile across) resembled a human face and created a major buzz at the time — was tampered with by Sagan before being released to the public.”
You forgot to mention O'Leary believes that the face is real and the pyramids are as well. That they indicate the existence of a culture on Mars long since gone and that he had a major falling out with Carl Sagan. So his motives need to be examined before you take what he says at face value “O’Leary started to examine some of Carl’s work. He said that the famous “Face” in Cydonia on Mars — photographed by Viking in 1975, this enormous formation (about a mile across) resembled a human face and created a major buzz at the time — was tampered with by Sagan before being released to the public.”
Sagan colleague and former NASA astronaut Cornell and Princeton physicist OLeary said:
It was very, very disappointing to me, because not only was Carl wrong, he also fudged data. He published a picture of the �Face” in Parade Magazine, a popular article, saying that the “Face” was just a natural formation, but he doctored the picture to make it not look like a face.
Data tampering / data fudging / doctoring images, it's an appalling state of affairs but faithfully familiar to followers of the climate fairytales. 
.What you are attempting to do is call into question the integrity of Carl Sagan who just happens to have founded the skeptical science movement and was for many years outspoken regarding climate change and man's role in it. Because if you can sow the seeds of doubt in one area of his work then of course in your mind you throw all his work into doubt including climate change.
Is this really the level you have descended to rubbishing a dead man who would have owned your ass with just a few sentences. I doubt very much whether you are qualified to sharpen his pencils.
If underlying data has been adjusted/altered or frigged in an undocumented and ireversible manner, then 'science' ceases to be the applicable discipline and perhaps advocacy masquerading under the 'science' banner in order to attain greater credibility may be a more appropriate description, although somewhat less snappy.
BBC "Full Steam Ahead" on hurricane Harvey and climate change.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
Edited to change link - paste buffer had not been purged.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
Guff said:
There's a well-established physical law, the Clausius-Clapeyron equation, that says that a hotter atmosphere holds more moisture.
For every extra degree Celsius in warming, the atmosphere can hold 7% more water. This tends to make rainfall events even more extreme when they occur.
Check the absorption spectra for H20 in its gaseous state and CO2 - there always was an issue concerning the effectiveness of CO2 as a GHG in the presence of H2O in its gaseous state.For every extra degree Celsius in warming, the atmosphere can hold 7% more water. This tends to make rainfall events even more extreme when they occur.
Edited to change link - paste buffer had not been purged.
Edited by Ali G on Tuesday 29th August 18:00
Edited by Ali G on Tuesday 29th August 18:15
Ali G said:
BBC "Full Steam Ahead" on hurricane Harvey and climate change.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-410700...
Yes, the Clausius-Clapeyron equation fully explains why we always get hugely more rainfall in summer than in winter. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-410700...
Guff said:
There's a well-established physical law, the Clausius-Clapeyron equation, that says that a hotter atmosphere holds more moisture.
For every extra degree Celsius in warming, the atmosphere can hold 7% more water. This tends to make rainfall events even more extreme when they occur.
Check the absorption spectra for H20 in its gaseous state and CO2 - there always was an issue concerning the effectiveness of CO2 as a GHG in the presence of H2O in its gaseous state.For every extra degree Celsius in warming, the atmosphere can hold 7% more water. This tends to make rainfall events even more extreme when they occur.
Take one trivial factor and pretend that there aren't any other factors involved. (something like "Speed Kills")
Ali G said:
BBC "Full Steam Ahead" on hurricane Harvey and climate change.
On R4 'Today' program this morning, they had an interview with an expert, the interviewer seemed to be guiding the interview along this rout linking this hurricane to CCNaturally they, repeated the lie that the 'Deniers don't believe in climate change' >sigh
Beeb quite clearly has an agenda ...
MikeyC said:
On R4 'Today' program this morning, they had an interview with an expert, the interviewer seemed to be guiding the interview along this rout linking this hurricane to CC
Naturally they, repeated the lie that the 'Deniers don't believe in climate change' >sigh
Beeb quite clearly has an agenda .
Yup - not entirely clear what that agenda is although failure to comply with groupthink as determined by a select self-serving publicly funded politically motivated coven would appear to be unacceptable to that particular gang.Naturally they, repeated the lie that the 'Deniers don't believe in climate change' >sigh
Beeb quite clearly has an agenda .
More Beeb b
ks
Hurricane Harvey: The link to climate change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
"Researchers are also quite confident in linking the intensity of the rainfall that is still falling in the Houston area to climate change."
How and why?
ksHurricane Harvey: The link to climate change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
"Researchers are also quite confident in linking the intensity of the rainfall that is still falling in the Houston area to climate change."
How and why?
robinessex said:
More Beeb bks
Hurricane Harvey: The link to climate change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
"Researchers are also quite confident in linking the intensity of the rainfall that is still falling in the Houston area to climate change."
How and why?
True belief.ksHurricane Harvey: The link to climate change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
"Researchers are also quite confident in linking the intensity of the rainfall that is still falling in the Houston area to climate change."
How and why?
As per previous posts there are wild claims that so-called record rainfall is due to non-existent manmade global warming causing the small chunk of atmosphere that makes up this particular hurricane / tropical storm to hold more water vapour and thereby produce more rainfall. Taking a longer timescale perspective, the chances of this being a record are nil. Also in this case rainfall has been increasing due to the rotating air mass of the slow-moving hurricane / tropical storm sitting half over land and half over the Gulf of Mexico, allowing the weather system to recharge from the moist air offshore and then carry it onshore. As per Judith Curry's analysis and comments which I've already posted in this thread, claims of a link to agw are hysterical bunkum but only to be expected.
Wonder how Harvey compares to the one they had in 1935? They had a flood in downtown Houston where they measured the water at 54 feet! (I assume above sea level? it was called gage height). From the picture I saw it looked like it came up to and over 2nd floor windows? Houston was 38 ft on monday so they had someway to go, but its been raining non-stop!
This is apparently the 4th category 4 hurricane to make US landfall since the 1970s, not sure if that is true. I also read there'd been 14 in the same period up to 1970. The last cat 4 to land on the US was in 2004. Katrina made it all the way to cat 5!!!
In short I am not inclined to put much stock into the claims that climate change made this happen or made it worse or whatever. Events like this have happened before and they'll happen again. This isn't even the worst one, even though it is indeed bad. I think conditions have just conspired against them, unfortunately. I think as well there's been a bit a lull in such intense hurricanes, the last one was over a decade ago.
As usual the climate scare group are having it both ways. Climate change simultaneously increases and decreases the frequency of such storms, makes them both worse and not so worse and causes the wind to drop to keep them in place; the same winds that their computer modeling also said should become consistently stronger. They really are having their cake and eating it. All of it.
This is apparently the 4th category 4 hurricane to make US landfall since the 1970s, not sure if that is true. I also read there'd been 14 in the same period up to 1970. The last cat 4 to land on the US was in 2004. Katrina made it all the way to cat 5!!!
In short I am not inclined to put much stock into the claims that climate change made this happen or made it worse or whatever. Events like this have happened before and they'll happen again. This isn't even the worst one, even though it is indeed bad. I think conditions have just conspired against them, unfortunately. I think as well there's been a bit a lull in such intense hurricanes, the last one was over a decade ago.
As usual the climate scare group are having it both ways. Climate change simultaneously increases and decreases the frequency of such storms, makes them both worse and not so worse and causes the wind to drop to keep them in place; the same winds that their computer modeling also said should become consistently stronger. They really are having their cake and eating it. All of it.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 30th August 15:17
I have seen a suggestion that the Harvey "Category 4" classification was based on a single burst reading of 132mph at one location just as it first hit land, after which readings there and in other locations fell rapidly. Cat 4 is supposed to be sustained wind speeds in excess of 130mph as I understand things.
The rainfall problem seems to have been exacerbated by the storm settling half over land and half over the Gulf of Mexico, thus replenishing itself constantly whilst hardly moving.
Not great. Plus it would seem that Houston has been slowly subsiding over the years so one assumes the drainage potential in some areas might be noticeably diminished even before taking expansion projects and infrastructure development into account.
Presumably the locals consider all of this when they plan and accept the risk that they are likely to be adversely affected from time to time based on known weather history.
The rainfall problem seems to have been exacerbated by the storm settling half over land and half over the Gulf of Mexico, thus replenishing itself constantly whilst hardly moving.
Not great. Plus it would seem that Houston has been slowly subsiding over the years so one assumes the drainage potential in some areas might be noticeably diminished even before taking expansion projects and infrastructure development into account.
Presumably the locals consider all of this when they plan and accept the risk that they are likely to be adversely affected from time to time based on known weather history.
robinessex said:
More Beeb bks
Hurricane Harvey: The link to climate change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
"Researchers are also quite confident in linking the intensity of the rainfall that is still falling in the Houston area to climate change."
How and why?
It explains how and why in the article you have linked to.ksHurricane Harvey: The link to climate change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
"Researchers are also quite confident in linking the intensity of the rainfall that is still falling in the Houston area to climate change."
How and why?
durbster said:
robinessex said:
More Beeb bks
Hurricane Harvey: The link to climate change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
"Researchers are also quite confident in linking the intensity of the rainfall that is still falling in the Houston area to climate change."
How and why?
It explains how and why in the article you have linked to.ksHurricane Harvey: The link to climate change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-4108...
"Researchers are also quite confident in linking the intensity of the rainfall that is still falling in the Houston area to climate change."
How and why?
"FOR THE INTENSITY OF THE RAINFALL (OVER HOUSTON), IT IS VERY REASONABLE TO ASSUME THERE IS A SIGNAL FROM CLIMATE CHANGE IN THAT INTENSITY."
One big question, though, is the persistence of the storm over the Texas area. This has been key to the scale of the downpour and the amount of flooding that has been seen so far.
SOME RESEARCHERS BELIEVE THAT CLIMATE IS PLAYING A ROLE HERE TOO."
There, that's the postive proof we need. Carry on believing !!!!
Engineer792 said:
turbobloke said:
durbster said:
It explains how and why in the article (you have) linked to.
Which link offers garbage for those who like to recycle it.There is no link.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff