Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 4

[dickymint]

gadgetmac said:

dickymint said:

I'll ask again then. Why do you want to know why a poster decides to delete his post? Why is it that important to you?

What’s it got to do with you why I asked???

I did ask, he answered, end of.

Why do you want to continue this line? Trolling?

True to form as usual. A question answered by three questions

[gadgetmac]

dickymint said:

gadgetmac said:

dickymint said:

I'll ask again then. Why do you want to know why a poster decides to delete his post? Why is it that important to you?

What’s it got to do with you why I asked???

I did ask, he answered, end of.

Why do you want to continue this line? Trolling?

True to form as usual. A question answered by three questions

Excellent. The Spanish inquisition is over.

[dickymint]

^^^ last word syndrome confirmed

[Diderot]

gadgetmac said:

Today's BBC Turbobloke puff piece...

Germany looks like it won't meet it's Paris agreement goals on time.

Meh.

it's = it is.

[Diderot]

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

[dangerousB]

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

Interested to hear the answer to this one

[LongQ]

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

Excellent.

Something relevant to the political focus intended for this thread.

Does Alt-Right exist as an organisation, have membership and so on?

It's quite an interesting piece that seems to illustrate, amongst other things, how Thatcher apparently came to have an opinion about Global Warming - useful if making a speech to an international group of leaders.

She was, it seems, aligned with Jim Hanson in loving nuclear but hating coal - although it would seem that the hate of coal was for different reasons to Hanson's. Hanson seems to have a personal hatred of the Coal Industry that led him, even as a very senior person in NASA, to undertake political activities. Some may remember his trip to England to join a protest against a Coal Fired Power station development in Kent. Thatcher saw the demise of coal as a way eliminate the influence of some of the more powerful Unions.

Hanson's feelings were strong enough to see him arrested a few times. Admirable in some ways (though possibly best kept to one's own country?) as a visibly demonstration of one's passion on a subject but perhaps showing questionable judgement politically?

Thatcher's speech was, iirc, the year after Hansen's somewhat notorious and opportunistic presentation to the USA political elite in Washington DC.

It's quite interesting to consider the linked article alongside this one from the same author
.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/01/why-r...

The article is about epistocracy as an alternative to democracy and is, perhaps, a little heavy on academic theory but taken only marginally out of context in terms of our subject matter here, offers this observation:

"The first is that we set the bar too high in politics by insisting on looking for the best thing to do. Sometimes it is more important to avoid the worst. Even if democracy is often bad at coming up with the right answers, it is good at unpicking the wrong ones. Moreover, it is good at exposing people who think they always know best. Democratic politics assumes there is no settled answer to any question and it ensures that is the case by allowing everyone a vote, including the ignorant. The randomness of democracy – which remains its essential quality – protects us against getting stuck with truly bad ideas. It means that nothing will last for long, because something else will come along to disrupt it.

Epistocracy is flawed because of the second part of the word rather than the first – this is about power (kratos) as much as it is about knowledge (episteme). Fixing power to knowledge risks creating a monster that can’t be deflected from its course, even when it goes wrong – which it will, since no one and nothing is infallible. Not knowing the right answer is a great defence against people who believe that their knowledge makes them superior."


In my view you can take this observation at the macro philosophical level when discussing political theories (as the author is doing in that section) or you can apply the same thinking about subsets that we might describe under a heading like "matters of importance" .


The original article linked has, inter alia, this paragraph:

"Climate change is the defining political issue of our times and not simply because of the risks we run if we get it wrong. An inadequate response – if we do too little, too late – could inflict untold damage on the habitable environment. But even before that day comes, the contest over the truth about climate change is doing serious damage to our democracy."

The first sentence I broadly agree with although perhaps with a different reason in mind.

The second sentence, however, is somewhat flawed. Even accepting that the experts know what to do and how to do it as a suitable and responsible action for whatever they believe is a controllable mechanism ... there is no basis for accepting unquestioningly that they are aright.

The more correct expression of concern would, in my opinion, read:

"An inadequate response – if we do too little, too late or too much too soon – could inflict untold damage on the habitable environment or the system of social economics on which humans depend."

Indeed, from a human perspective, mess up the "social system" and the economics of energy availability and utilisation and our concerns will be deflected rapidly away from any issues of "damage to the habitable environment".

With human development set back hundreds of years the habitable environment will recover or adapt to its new situation as it always has within a few decades. But the idea that the effects of what would be intended to be "remedial" action might just as easily be as damaging or perhaps more damaging than the problem they are deployed to resolve seems to be something that is rarely if ever discussed.

Mankind's experts, especially in the area of ecology in its broadest term of reference, don't often have a great success rate at hitting the targets of the their projects and only the targets, avoiding any peripheral consequences, even for what are extremely simple problems that are well understood when compared to the much more complex and less well understood matters of planetary climate.

To see a failure on only one side of the issue is, I would suggest, a little myopic.

[LoonyTunes]

dangerousB said:

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

Interested to hear the answer to this one

In this case it's just lazy typing and is short for 'Man Made Climate Change Denier' (AGW Denier etc). But then you knew that really right?

Everybody believes Climate Change is happening it's the Man Made bit that is in question yes?

Interested to hear the answer to this one from the deniers all the same

[Diderot]

LoonyTunes said:

dangerousB said:

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

Interested to hear the answer to this one

In this case it's just lazy typing and is short for 'Man Made Climate Change Denier' (AGW Denier etc). But then you knew that really right?

Everybody believes Climate Change is happening it's the Man Made bit that is in question yes?

Interested to hear the answer to this one from the deniers all the same

Lazy typing or lazy thinking?

[PRTVR]

LoonyTunes said:

dangerousB said:

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

Interested to hear the answer to this one

In this case it's just lazy typing and is short for 'Man Made Climate Change Denier' (AGW Denier etc). But then you knew that really right?

Everybody believes Climate Change is happening it's the Man Made bit that is in question yes?

Interested to hear the answer to this one from the deniers all the same

Is it ? My view is that it can have an effect but it is that small it is unable to be recorded and will not bring the end of the world.

[LoonyTunes]

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

dangerousB said:

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

Interested to hear the answer to this one

In this case it's just lazy typing and is short for 'Man Made Climate Change Denier' (AGW Denier etc). But then you knew that really right?

Everybody believes Climate Change is happening it's the Man Made bit that is in question yes?

Interested to hear the answer to this one from the deniers all the same

Lazy typing or lazy thinking?

What was that about Ad Homs?

You make Gadgetmacs point for him

gadgetmac said:

Jazzy Jag said:

I think I'm beginning to understand this thread now.

If you don't like an article or someone posts something contrary to your point of view, you launch an ad hominem attack on Turbobloke.

I'm I getting this right?

Yeah...and it seems to work in reverse too. See Durbster, JJ etc for details.

ETA and now Me! Well done.

[durbster]

dickymint said:

^^^ last word syndrome confirmed

You actually posted this without realising.

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

And trying to score points from these kinds of silly semantics is just feeble, but indicative of the position you're arguing from.

[turbobloke]

PRTVR said:

LoonyTunes said:

dangerousB said:

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

Interested to hear the answer to this one

In this case it's just lazy typing and is short for 'Man Made Climate Change Denier' (AGW Denier etc). But then you knew that really right?

Everybody believes Climate Change is happening it's the Man Made bit that is in question yes?

Interested to hear the answer to this one from the deniers all the same

Is it ? My view is that it can have an effect but it is that small it is unable to be recorded and will not bring the end of the world.

Likewise.

There was a University of Queensland research piece examining the view that people with conservative political views are more likely to be sceptical of manmade global warming which found no difference across the political spectrum in most countries. There was more polarisation in developed nations - which is where politicians are trying to abuse climate via adoption of baseless scaremongering to increase the tax burden and redistribute wealth.

[Diderot]

LoonyTunes said:

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

dangerousB said:

Diderot said:

LoonyTunes said:

In the US not every climate denier is from the alt-right but every alt-right member is a climate denier.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/0...

What is a 'climate denier'?

Interested to hear the answer to this one

In this case it's just lazy typing and is short for 'Man Made Climate Change Denier' (AGW Denier etc). But then you knew that really right?

Everybody believes Climate Change is happening it's the Man Made bit that is in question yes?

Interested to hear the answer to this one from the deniers all the same

Lazy typing or lazy thinking?

What was that about Ad Homs?

You make Gadgetmacs point for him.

It was a question. The clue was the use of the question mark.

You seem to conflate or view ‘climate change’ and ‘MMGW’ as interchangeable terms. Is this a correct assessment of your position?

[LoonyTunes]

turbobloke said:

There was more polarisation in developed nations - which is where politicians are trying to abuse climate via adoption of baseless scaremongering to increase the tax burden and redistribute wealth.

I'm confused by this.

So it's currently all the fault of the Conservatives (because they've been in power now for 8 years so could have done a 'Trump' at any time and pulled out of any agreements) taking part in "increasing the tax burden and redistributing wealth to the poorer societies"? That's how you are squaring the circle to make your philosophy work?

Indeed all of the right wing governments around the world (USA, Syria and Nicaragua excepted) are involved too? In Europe it's currently Us, Austria and Italy at the very least but you could expand that if you broaden your definition of 'right wing'.

Perhaps you feel that these types of right wing governments aren't REALLY right wing at all but more Liberal Centrist? In which case how far right are you by most political commentators definition of the word? Alt-Right?

Edited by LoonyTunes on Monday 20th August 09:42

[LoonyTunes]

Diderot said:

It was a question. The clue was the use of the question mark.

You seem to conflate or view ‘climate change’ and ‘MMGW’ as interchangeable terms. Is this a correct assessment of your position?

You seem, despite being told, to be unable to comprehend the answer given. Is that a correct assessment of your position?

[Kawasicki]

LoonyTunes said:

In this case it's just lazy typing and is short for 'Man Made Climate Change Denier' (AGW Denier etc). But then you knew that really right?

Everybody believes Climate Change is happening it's the Man Made bit that is in question yes?

Interested to hear the answer to this one from the deniers all the same

Here we go again.


Climate change has always happened. We just happen to be living in a relatively cool interglacial period. The man made bit isn’t in question either, it just seems to have a weak effect.

I also believe in the effectiveness of vaccines and the moon landings...

[LoonyTunes]

Kawasicki said:

Here we go again.

Climate change has always happened. We just happen to be living in a relatively cool interglacial period. The man made bit isn’t in question either, it just seems to have a weak effect.

I also believe in the effectiveness of vaccines and the moon landings...

So you align yourself with Trump, Syria (Assad) and Nicaragua? OK.

eta Sorry, Nicaragua have now signed apparently.

[turbobloke]

LoonyTunes said:

Kawasicki said:

Here we go again.

Climate change has always happened. We just happen to be living in a relatively cool interglacial period. The man made bit isn’t in question either, it just seems to have a weak effect.

I also believe in the effectiveness of vaccines and the moon landings...

So you align yourself with Trump, Syria (Assad) and Nicaragua? OK.

.

If Trump tweeted that he was against the random killing of children, would you de-align yourself from that position (or expect others to do so) just because it was Trump?

It would appear so. Otherwise your point in reply to Kawasicki is pointless.

[Kawasicki]

LoonyTunes said:

Kawasicki said:

Here we go again.

Climate change has always happened. We just happen to be living in a relatively cool interglacial period. The man made bit isn’t in question either, it just seems to have a weak effect.

I also believe in the effectiveness of vaccines and the moon landings...

So you align yourself with Trump, Syria (Assad) and Nicaragua? OK.

eta Sorry, Nicaragua have now signed apparently.

Your ability to think logically needs development.