Northern Ireland
Discussion
iphonedyou said:
Apropos of nothing, I wish we were able to buy plants online again. That's my biggest day-to-day gripe of this whole mess.
Feels a bit third world when nobody will ship to you.
Indeed. Many adverts or online special offers I've seen have been prefaced with "Not available in Northern Ireland / Cannot ship to Northern Ireland..."Feels a bit third world when nobody will ship to you.
But still. Nothing needs changed apparently.
It feels like the only way out of this now is a boarder poll. NI either joins the south or there is a hard boarder. There is, frankly, no other option. The GFA is f
ked, the current situation is unsustainable and Brexit has just torn to shreds many years of hard work.
There is absolutely no way this can be sorted to anyones satisfaction, and a boarder poll seems like the least bad option available.
ked, the current situation is unsustainable and Brexit has just torn to shreds many years of hard work.There is absolutely no way this can be sorted to anyones satisfaction, and a boarder poll seems like the least bad option available.
Are there any good sources for reading up about the opinions from each side in Northern Ireland? Anything about alternative proposals etc?
I’m always reluctant to engage in the topic, do people who support the NIP see it as a long term solution or a pathway to something else? I find it hard to see that it’s a realistic long term solution personally, but the discussion always descends into party politics, leave/remain etc.
I’m always reluctant to engage in the topic, do people who support the NIP see it as a long term solution or a pathway to something else? I find it hard to see that it’s a realistic long term solution personally, but the discussion always descends into party politics, leave/remain etc.
Electro1980 said:
It feels like the only way out of this now is a boarder poll. NI either joins the south or there is a hard boarder. There is, frankly, no other option. The GFA is fked, the current situation is unsustainable and Brexit has just torn to shreds many years of hard work.
There is absolutely no way this can be sorted to anyones satisfaction, and a boarder poll seems like the least bad option available.
I'm not so sure. The imposition of referenda as part of our electoral system in the last decade have hardly been a resounding success.ked, the current situation is unsustainable and Brexit has just torn to shreds many years of hard work.There is absolutely no way this can be sorted to anyones satisfaction, and a boarder poll seems like the least bad option available.
Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
There has to be a political solution, but to me at least a border poll would be the worst possible solution.
It’s interesting on the border poll/reunification topic that the shinners are fairly quiet down here. They’re much more focused on putting pressure on the current administration and its fairly poor attempts at resolving housing and healthcare issues
However, should/when they get into power in ROI, I expect that narrative to change, and a general push towards support for reunification to rear its head. If they time that with a border poll in the North, then it might increase support down here, but I still think it will ultimately fall flat. Especially if, as I think likely, SF don’t have the economic answers that everyone now wants to their day-to-day living issues
However, should/when they get into power in ROI, I expect that narrative to change, and a general push towards support for reunification to rear its head. If they time that with a border poll in the North, then it might increase support down here, but I still think it will ultimately fall flat. Especially if, as I think likely, SF don’t have the economic answers that everyone now wants to their day-to-day living issues
Roderick Spode said:
I'm not so sure. The imposition of referenda as part of our electoral system in the last decade have hardly been a resounding success.
Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
I'd agree, but if the referendum was in favour of joining the ROI all of those problems (and all problems associated with NI) become Dublin's problem.Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
It's a referendum mainland Britain can't lose. Worst case is we end up back where we are.
BikeBikeBIke said:
I'd agree, but if the referendum was in favour of joining the ROI all of those problems (and all problems associated with NI) become Dublin's problem.
It's a referendum mainland Britain can't lose. Worst case is we end up back where we are.
Maybe, but ROI would probably want to hold a similar referendum too (even though we don’t need to), and the results of that are probably unlikely to be positive for reunification. Back to square one thenIt's a referendum mainland Britain can't lose. Worst case is we end up back where we are.
Roderick Spode said:
iphonedyou said:
Apropos of nothing, I wish we were able to buy plants online again. That's my biggest day-to-day gripe of this whole mess.
Feels a bit third world when nobody will ship to you.
Indeed. Many adverts or online special offers I've seen have been prefaced with "Not available in Northern Ireland / Cannot ship to Northern Ireland..."Feels a bit third world when nobody will ship to you.
But still. Nothing needs changed apparently.
Leins said:
Maybe, but ROI would probably want to hold a similar referendum too (even though we don’t need to), and the results of that are probably unlikely to be positive for reunification. Back to square one then
How many referendums was there before you changed to the euro (or whatever it was a few years back) 3 before they got the answer they wanted?Electro1980 said:
It feels like the only way out of this now is a boarder poll. NI either joins the south or there is a hard boarder. There is, frankly, no other option. The GFA is fked, the current situation is unsustainable and Brexit has just torn to shreds many years of hard work.
There is absolutely no way this can be sorted to anyones satisfaction, and a boarder poll seems like the least bad option available.
Current situation would be sustainable if the headers in stormont actually did their damn jobs and stopped playing "themmuns" (correct number of "m"s this time?) and "us'uns"ked, the current situation is unsustainable and Brexit has just torn to shreds many years of hard work.There is absolutely no way this can be sorted to anyones satisfaction, and a boarder poll seems like the least bad option available.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Roderick Spode said:
I'm not so sure. The imposition of referenda as part of our electoral system in the last decade have hardly been a resounding success.
Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
I'd agree, but if the referendum was in favour of joining the ROI all of those problems (and all problems associated with NI) become Dublin's problem.Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
It's a referendum mainland Britain can't lose. Worst case is we end up back where we are.
At the moment, Northern Ireland has enjoyed circa 25 years of peaceful coexistence between the two communities, including fundamentalist hardliners on both sides, who have managed to gain little traction for their extremist ideologies of violence.
In the event of a border poll in favour of remaining part of the UK, the militant Republicans would know the game was a bogey, and would no doubt create a stir for a revolutionary uprising against ongoing British rule. Dublin would inevitably become involved, as nobody of a moderate persuasion will want to see a reigniting of a civil war on the island of Ireland.
In the event of a border poll in favour of leaving the UK and uniting the island, the militant Loyalists would reject any concept of Irish rule from Dublin, and most likely instigate a campaign against the government of the South, possibly even planting bombs in Dublin as the IRA did to London in the 90s. The Irish army (such as it is) would likely be incapable of dealing with such a campaign, and would look to the UK government for support. The London political class would not want to turn a blind eye to an ongoing civil war on the land mass directly adjacent to the rUK, and would feel duty bound to intervene out of a sense of self preservation and historical precedent.
Either which way, both outcomes are likely to involve the UK Government on an ongoing basis. The theory that the UK could simply walk away is for the birds.
ooo000ooo said:
Roderick Spode said:
Indeed. Many adverts or online special offers I've seen have been prefaced with "Not available in Northern Ireland / Cannot ship to Northern Ireland..."
But still. Nothing needs changed apparently.
Has this not always been a thing though?But still. Nothing needs changed apparently.
Electro1980 said:
It feels like the only way out of this now is a boarder poll. NI either joins the south or there is a hard boarder.
It's a question of WHEN not IF, which makes all this Unionist/British posturing such complete and total bloody waste of everybody's time.Why dick about with the NIP when it will only be in effect for another few years?
A reunification doesn't have to mean throwing a switch, either. There can be a phased handing back, with joint planning from Dublin and London.
ooo000ooo said:
Leins said:
Maybe, but ROI would probably want to hold a similar referendum too (even though we don’t need to), and the results of that are probably unlikely to be positive for reunification. Back to square one then
How many referendums was there before you changed to the euro (or whatever it was a few years back) 3 before they got the answer they wanted?You’re also assuming that the current Irish legislation would welcome a positive confirmation on a reunification of Ireland, but I’m not sure that’s the case
Edited by Leins on Thursday 12th May 14:23
Roderick Spode said:
I'm not so sure. The imposition of referenda as part of our electoral system in the last decade have hardly been a resounding success.
Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
There has to be a political solution, but to me at least a border poll would be the worst possible solution.
Agreed.Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
There has to be a political solution, but to me at least a border poll would be the worst possible solution.
The current problem in NI is that the two extremes cannot both be satisfied. For many, the attitude is "well a United Ireland is inevitable at some point anyway, so lets crack on" - primarily triggered by the GFA including the "process" for that within it.
However, that doesn't mean that unionists/unionism will disappear.
A phrase I'm hearing more & more (and wholeheartedly agree with) is "There cannot be a united ireland until there is a united northern ireland". So the rise of the portion of the vote in NI for alliance (small "a") parties is very welcome. I believe that is the best future for NI - whether part of the UK or part of the ROI.
The irony is, it's relatively easy to be "irish" outside of the ROI and maintain an irish identity, but very difficult to be "unionist" outside of NI. The core identity of being unionist is being unioned with the rest of the kingdom. It's not like being a displaced "citizen of somewhere else" - with all the identity that that has. It's not like being an english person abroad, or a scottish person abroad, or a welsh person abroad.
M.
Mortarboard said:
Agreed.
The current problem in NI is that the two extremes cannot both be satisfied. For many, the attitude is "well a United Ireland is inevitable at some point anyway, so lets crack on" - primarily triggered by the GFA including the "process" for that within it.
However, that doesn't mean that unionists/unionism will disappear.
A phrase I'm hearing more & more (and wholeheartedly agree with) is "There cannot be a united ireland until there is a united northern ireland". So the rise of the portion of the vote in NI for alliance (small "a") parties is very welcome. I believe that is the best future for NI - whether part of the UK or part of the ROI.
The irony is, it's relatively easy to be "irish" outside of the ROI and maintain an irish identity, but very difficult to be "unionist" outside of NI. The core identity of being unionist is being unioned with the rest of the kingdom. It's not like being a displaced "citizen of somewhere else" - with all the identity that that has. It's not like being an english person abroad, or a scottish person abroad, or a welsh person abroad.
M.
As someone who would be classed as unionist, i'm irish when it suits, british when it suits and from ulster when you want to confuse someone SUFTUMThe current problem in NI is that the two extremes cannot both be satisfied. For many, the attitude is "well a United Ireland is inevitable at some point anyway, so lets crack on" - primarily triggered by the GFA including the "process" for that within it.
However, that doesn't mean that unionists/unionism will disappear.
A phrase I'm hearing more & more (and wholeheartedly agree with) is "There cannot be a united ireland until there is a united northern ireland". So the rise of the portion of the vote in NI for alliance (small "a") parties is very welcome. I believe that is the best future for NI - whether part of the UK or part of the ROI.
The irony is, it's relatively easy to be "irish" outside of the ROI and maintain an irish identity, but very difficult to be "unionist" outside of NI. The core identity of being unionist is being unioned with the rest of the kingdom. It's not like being a displaced "citizen of somewhere else" - with all the identity that that has. It's not like being an english person abroad, or a scottish person abroad, or a welsh person abroad.
M.
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