tesla , the future ?
Discussion
fblm said:
That's just made up. There's absolutely no way you can run the required cabling for a street of chargers down old street light conduits. Besides street lights aren't spaced every car apart. Do you have any idea how thick (and expensive) cables rated to run a whole street of chargers would be? This is crazy talk, not to mention a carbon copy of the last Tesla thread. As has already been pointed out; out of town/supermarket/work fast charging stations are a far better solution outside of new towns with new electrical infrastructure, than charging at home.
There are plenty of arguments against EVs but I don't get this one. Is it any more of a logistical challenge than installing the nation's broadband network? Or the cable TV network?durbster said:
There are plenty of arguments against EVs but I don't get this one. Is it any more of a logistical challenge than installing the nation's broadband network? Or the cable TV network?
Yep its the same - we can bring our cars into our apartments and plug them in 
If you live in a 3 bed semi with garage and drive you will be fine
If you are on the 8th floor of an apartment block that has poor parking and you usually end up round the corner 10 mins up the street you might struggle to find a charging point
Unless every metre of public roads will have on installed which is also secure
Average annual mileage in the UK = 8k, A 1000 mile range means recharge perhaps once a month. Tesla could probably build a lightweight version of one of their current offerings with a range of 500 miles. Can roof mounted solar cells trickle charge an EV when it's at rest?
The little-used back roads will deteriorate due to lack of maintenance, some will be pounded into rubble by heavy agricultural vehicles. Enthusiasts who wish to travel far from the maddening crowd whilst controlling obsolete vehicles powered by controlled explosions will then turn to the various Land Rover products.
The little-used back roads will deteriorate due to lack of maintenance, some will be pounded into rubble by heavy agricultural vehicles. Enthusiasts who wish to travel far from the maddening crowd whilst controlling obsolete vehicles powered by controlled explosions will then turn to the various Land Rover products.
ian in lancs said:
300bhp/ton said:
...they are unlikely to ever be viable. If you don’t have a driveway, as many don’t. Then you can’t charge them at home...
Never thought of that issue before. Quite a blocker that one.They took it all over Europe including a trip to Italy mountain climbing.
It was also stupendously fast.
I would have one without hesitation if I could afford it.
V8 Fettler said:
Average annual mileage in the UK = 8k, A 1000 mile range means recharge perhaps once a month. Tesla could probably build a lightweight version of one of their current offerings with a range of 500 miles. Can roof mounted solar cells trickle charge an EV when it's at rest?
The little-used back roads will deteriorate due to lack of maintenance, some will be pounded into rubble by heavy agricultural vehicles. Enthusiasts who wish to travel far from the maddening crowd whilst controlling obsolete vehicles powered by controlled explosions will then turn to the various Land Rover products.
The little-used back roads will deteriorate due to lack of maintenance, some will be pounded into rubble by heavy agricultural vehicles. Enthusiasts who wish to travel far from the maddening crowd whilst controlling obsolete vehicles powered by controlled explosions will then turn to the various Land Rover products.
If Tesla can do the then why don't they? I'd be interested in one of those.
What would the tech be? What does the battery itself weigh? How much does weight affect overall range? Where would they lose the weight?
RobDickinson said:
P100d battery is about 800kg
Afik they strip about 550kg from the model s for the track series. It's still a big car though.
Large battery model 3 is 1675kg or so.
Unless we get a step change in batteries expect we'll double capacity in about 10 years for the same weight
The Model 3 isn't too bad weight wise then - it's about 200kg more than a 2 litre diesel Focus and lighter than some 3 Series.Afik they strip about 550kg from the model s for the track series. It's still a big car though.
Large battery model 3 is 1675kg or so.
Unless we get a step change in batteries expect we'll double capacity in about 10 years for the same weight
fblm said:
RobDickinson said:
Yep utterly impossible, shame its already been done.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-st...
They wont be fast chargers, just low wattage trickle charge meant for overnight topups I guess
Come on. How many of those can you put on one street? Think about it. That's a 4.6kW charger. A street with 10 lamp posts a side would need a 480A circuit! 480A at 240V! Does that mean anything to you? It's a solution that can only provide a tiny handful of locations in any area. It's so obviously not a solution beyond a few first adopters. Honestly, I just don't think you or many people appreciate how much power these cars need and the challenges of providing it to more than a handful of people at a time on circuits not designed for it.http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-st...
They wont be fast chargers, just low wattage trickle charge meant for overnight topups I guess
otolith said:
...I can entirely sympathise with someone saying they don’t want to give up their high revving NA 4 and manual gearbox or their V8 for an electric, but a 2.0 TDI or a modern turbo 4 with a DSG or pretty much anything above 3-series sized where the sound insulation kills the engine noise completely - nah, that’s b
ks. You’ve got a nasty engine and a boring gearbox or something where is makes no frigging difference...
I agree. I doubt most people know or care what powertrain/capacity/configuration is in their car beyond petrol or diesel. Europe is a little weird, often putting the engine size on the bootlid but the rest of the world doesn't. I don't even know what capacity 2 of my cars are nor do I care any more than I care what sized motor my washing machine has. Petrol, diesel, electric... most of the time, who cares?ks. You’ve got a nasty engine and a boring gearbox or something where is makes no frigging difference... Edited by fblm on Tuesday 17th October 02:53
Put it this way, your domestic supply can handle a 13kw shower, or a 9kW hob, or a 3kW kettle with no issues during peak times. Why would you think the local grid couldn't handle car charging? On a 10 hour a car would need less power than my garden lights consume.
At peak power we will probably have to throttle charging (so when your hob is on you can't fast charge) but that's about it.
rscott said:
RobDickinson said:
P100d battery is about 800kg
Afik they strip about 550kg from the model s for the track series. It's still a big car though.
Large battery model 3 is 1675kg or so.
Unless we get a step change in batteries expect we'll double capacity in about 10 years for the same weight
The Model 3 isn't too bad weight wise then - it's about 200kg more than a 2 litre diesel Focus and lighter than some 3 Series.Afik they strip about 550kg from the model s for the track series. It's still a big car though.
Large battery model 3 is 1675kg or so.
Unless we get a step change in batteries expect we'll double capacity in about 10 years for the same weight
What's it's range going to be?
Electric cars have a future, I think hybrids have more of a medium term future, I’m not sure Tesla does have a future.
He’s got a couple of really serious problems:
1) He’s investing in batteries that are changing too fast. Pretty much every thread here talks about battery improvements either happening or being necessary - yet Tesla is investing billions in today’s batteries. You don’t build production lines for something that is not invented yet. The analogy would be BMW investing in oil fields to reduce the price of petrol - they don’t do that, they focus on making good cars. Let Samsung make batteries, sign a massive deal with them if necessary and focus on the cars.
2) More on focus. He can’t do it. He’s launching the most critical car in his companies history, and he’s more interested in vans, semi-trucks, powerwalls for Puerto Rico, going to Mars, autopilot, you name it, anything other than the bread and butter of actually getting the cars out the door.
3) People who know how to make, market and support cars will catch up. Very fast. They will build transition hybrid models, they know how to do it, they have decades of experience in working with OEMs and making quality products. Compare the inside of a Model S with an 80K BMW. It’s utterly crap in comparison. Oh yeah, we don’t paint the door shuts because, er.... Look at the LED brake lights when you’re following one - it must take real skill to align them that badly. So as soon as Jag/BMW et al decide to make a proper electric car, they’ll sell quite happily.
4) Take the subsidies away - and I mean all the subsidies - free parking, free congestion charge, BIK arrangements, the 5k bung ... and IMO sales would fall rather a lot. If you took all the subsidies away from his company, the burn rate would kill it in months.
He’s got a couple of really serious problems:
1) He’s investing in batteries that are changing too fast. Pretty much every thread here talks about battery improvements either happening or being necessary - yet Tesla is investing billions in today’s batteries. You don’t build production lines for something that is not invented yet. The analogy would be BMW investing in oil fields to reduce the price of petrol - they don’t do that, they focus on making good cars. Let Samsung make batteries, sign a massive deal with them if necessary and focus on the cars.
2) More on focus. He can’t do it. He’s launching the most critical car in his companies history, and he’s more interested in vans, semi-trucks, powerwalls for Puerto Rico, going to Mars, autopilot, you name it, anything other than the bread and butter of actually getting the cars out the door.
3) People who know how to make, market and support cars will catch up. Very fast. They will build transition hybrid models, they know how to do it, they have decades of experience in working with OEMs and making quality products. Compare the inside of a Model S with an 80K BMW. It’s utterly crap in comparison. Oh yeah, we don’t paint the door shuts because, er.... Look at the LED brake lights when you’re following one - it must take real skill to align them that badly. So as soon as Jag/BMW et al decide to make a proper electric car, they’ll sell quite happily.
4) Take the subsidies away - and I mean all the subsidies - free parking, free congestion charge, BIK arrangements, the 5k bung ... and IMO sales would fall rather a lot. If you took all the subsidies away from his company, the burn rate would kill it in months.
REALIST123 said:
rscott said:
RobDickinson said:
P100d battery is about 800kg
Afik they strip about 550kg from the model s for the track series. It's still a big car though.
Large battery model 3 is 1675kg or so.
Unless we get a step change in batteries expect we'll double capacity in about 10 years for the same weight
The Model 3 isn't too bad weight wise then - it's about 200kg more than a 2 litre diesel Focus and lighter than some 3 Series.Afik they strip about 550kg from the model s for the track series. It's still a big car though.
Large battery model 3 is 1675kg or so.
Unless we get a step change in batteries expect we'll double capacity in about 10 years for the same weight
What's it's range going to be?
turbobloke said:
Ali G said:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-09...
It looks like quite some gamble!
Particularly if Li-ion tech is superseded anytime soon..
Interesting: investors 'buried under a mountain of newer, higher-priority debt sold in the future'.It looks like quite some gamble!
Particularly if Li-ion tech is superseded anytime soon..
There are clearly questions people are asking about Tesla, curiously enough a PH thread on Tesla ought to be a reasonable place to discuss the basis for these questions. Indeed it is!
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/214364/20171014/...
Naturally it could be nothing more than Tesla's special way of reporting on its suboptimal recruitment / training / workforce motivation.
Tesla has a confirmed order book of customers waiting, having paid deposits, of a minimum of 22 months worth of planned production, which to date, they have failed to achieve. Every new order piles on more waiting time, more opressure but the deposits are useful.
They have been sacking people with little or no notice which has resulted in improved staff morale. The old adage "shoot a few to encourage the others".
Add in the fact that Govt subsidies all over the world that encouraged the purchase of Tesla have been removed with obvious results.
They have never made a profit.
They have raised yet more money, upsetting early investors, as they are burning through lots of cash.
Musk now wants to colonise Mars.
Look Squirrel.........
Cheers,
Tony
One problem is that people laud Musk as a great technical mind and visionary. He isn't. He's more along the lines of a Steve Jobs in that he's good at selling a vague idea to people & later on when it doesn't work out utterly forgetting it ever happened. He even attracts the same cult-like personal following.
With the businesses he's associated with he was often nowhere near to being the originator or sole founder that he's popularly presented as.
A lot of the time the ideas are at best half-baked - he looks at something and thinks 'that's easy, I can do that, probably a lot better' and then it doesn't work out. The vast majority of the solar stuff, the original Roadster, tunnelling ('I can build a machine that digs 10x faster! Simple!!!'), the original rocket designs ('Everyone builds too complex and expensive, who needs all that redundancy' Bang, bang, bang, bang, quietly goes conventional), the Gigafactory ('Build a huge factory, change the market' - empty shed in the desert pushing out a few Panasonic cells), the Model 3 ('Great, wonderful, we'll do it differently' - we'll skip prototype & test & fk the whole project up & then pretend we haven't). And those are the more practical ones.
I basically see the guy as a bullst artist who gets away with a lot because people treat him and his businesses like tech startups and allow him to get away with all sorts of crap because the share bubble keeps on inflating. Little things like profit, shipping product, actual product quality and proper financial controls (Tesla->Solar CIty->SpaceX) are overlooked because it's inconvenient.
EVs may well be the future. Tesla and its associated companies are more likely to end up as a smoking hole in the ground and a textbook lesson about certain types of bubble driven companies run by certain types of people.
With the businesses he's associated with he was often nowhere near to being the originator or sole founder that he's popularly presented as.
A lot of the time the ideas are at best half-baked - he looks at something and thinks 'that's easy, I can do that, probably a lot better' and then it doesn't work out. The vast majority of the solar stuff, the original Roadster, tunnelling ('I can build a machine that digs 10x faster! Simple!!!'), the original rocket designs ('Everyone builds too complex and expensive, who needs all that redundancy' Bang, bang, bang, bang, quietly goes conventional), the Gigafactory ('Build a huge factory, change the market' - empty shed in the desert pushing out a few Panasonic cells), the Model 3 ('Great, wonderful, we'll do it differently' - we'll skip prototype & test & f
k the whole project up & then pretend we haven't). And those are the more practical ones. I basically see the guy as a bulls
t artist who gets away with a lot because people treat him and his businesses like tech startups and allow him to get away with all sorts of crap because the share bubble keeps on inflating. Little things like profit, shipping product, actual product quality and proper financial controls (Tesla->Solar CIty->SpaceX) are overlooked because it's inconvenient. EVs may well be the future. Tesla and its associated companies are more likely to end up as a smoking hole in the ground and a textbook lesson about certain types of bubble driven companies run by certain types of people.
Tony427 said:
If I'm reading the tech times article correctly we have the following.
Tesla has a confirmed order book of customers waiting, having paid deposits, of a minimum of 22 months worth of planned production, which to date, they have failed to achieve. Every new order piles on more waiting time, more opressure but the deposits are useful.
They have been sacking people with little or no notice which has resulted in improved staff morale. The old adage "shoot a few to encourage the others".
Add in the fact that Govt subsidies all over the world that encouraged the purchase of Tesla have been removed with obvious results.
They have never made a profit.
They have raised yet more money, upsetting early investors, as they are burning through lots of cash.
Musk now wants to colonise Mars.
Look Squirrel.........
Cheers,
Tony
While much can be made of the other points, Musk wanting to colonise Mars is not a new thing. Maybe for those following Tesla it may sound like it but if you've never heard of SpaceX then I'd suggest reading up. That he is owner/CEO/fall guy for both companies is not a secret. They announced their Mars rocket a year ago and the recent announcement was an update. Tesla has a confirmed order book of customers waiting, having paid deposits, of a minimum of 22 months worth of planned production, which to date, they have failed to achieve. Every new order piles on more waiting time, more opressure but the deposits are useful.
They have been sacking people with little or no notice which has resulted in improved staff morale. The old adage "shoot a few to encourage the others".
Add in the fact that Govt subsidies all over the world that encouraged the purchase of Tesla have been removed with obvious results.
They have never made a profit.
They have raised yet more money, upsetting early investors, as they are burning through lots of cash.
Musk now wants to colonise Mars.
Look Squirrel.........
Cheers,
Tony
Musk doesn't want to "win" against other manufacturers with Tesla - that's why they make all of their patents public - he wants to drive change. He's certainly doing that.
Jonesy23 said:
One problem is that people laud Musk as a great technical mind and visionary. He isn't. He's more along the lines of a Steve Jobs in that he's good at selling a vague idea to people & later on when it doesn't work out utterly forgetting it ever happened. He even attracts the same cult-like personal following.
With the businesses he's associated with he was often nowhere near to being the originator or sole founder that he's popularly presented as.
A lot of the time the ideas are at best half-baked - he looks at something and thinks 'that's easy, I can do that, probably a lot better' and then it doesn't work out. The vast majority of the solar stuff, the original Roadster, tunnelling ('I can build a machine that digs 10x faster! Simple!!!'), the original rocket designs ('Everyone builds too complex and expensive, who needs all that redundancy' Bang, bang, bang, bang, quietly goes conventional), the Gigafactory ('Build a huge factory, change the market' - empty shed in the desert pushing out a few Panasonic cells), the Model 3 ('Great, wonderful, we'll do it differently' - we'll skip prototype & test & fk the whole project up & then pretend we haven't). And those are the more practical ones.
I basically see the guy as a bullst artist who gets away with a lot because people treat him and his businesses like tech startups and allow him to get away with all sorts of crap because the share bubble keeps on inflating. Little things like profit, shipping product, actual product quality and proper financial controls (Tesla->Solar CIty->SpaceX) are overlooked because it's inconvenient.
EVs may well be the future. Tesla and its associated companies are more likely to end up as a smoking hole in the ground and a textbook lesson about certain types of bubble driven companies run by certain types of people.
It doesn't matter if Musk Succeeds or fails, I agree he is a great marketeer, vertically landing rockets were the stuff of R&D competitions before Space X I assume that Space X brought out one of the smaller companies that did the original work. With the businesses he's associated with he was often nowhere near to being the originator or sole founder that he's popularly presented as.
A lot of the time the ideas are at best half-baked - he looks at something and thinks 'that's easy, I can do that, probably a lot better' and then it doesn't work out. The vast majority of the solar stuff, the original Roadster, tunnelling ('I can build a machine that digs 10x faster! Simple!!!'), the original rocket designs ('Everyone builds too complex and expensive, who needs all that redundancy' Bang, bang, bang, bang, quietly goes conventional), the Gigafactory ('Build a huge factory, change the market' - empty shed in the desert pushing out a few Panasonic cells), the Model 3 ('Great, wonderful, we'll do it differently' - we'll skip prototype & test & f
k the whole project up & then pretend we haven't). And those are the more practical ones. I basically see the guy as a bulls
t artist who gets away with a lot because people treat him and his businesses like tech startups and allow him to get away with all sorts of crap because the share bubble keeps on inflating. Little things like profit, shipping product, actual product quality and proper financial controls (Tesla->Solar CIty->SpaceX) are overlooked because it's inconvenient. EVs may well be the future. Tesla and its associated companies are more likely to end up as a smoking hole in the ground and a textbook lesson about certain types of bubble driven companies run by certain types of people.
Tesla Roadster as we know was based on the Lotus Elise so from a vehicle development point of view Tesla learnt a lot from an existing manufacturer. The other main stream manufacturers will not be sunk by Tesla they will just adapt and change as the tech becomes cheaper and more viable.
Mars.......well who wants to live in an environment without trees wind rain snow, a blue sky oceans and wildlife sounds pretty dire to me. To go outside means to wear a suit unable to feel the elements......thats not a life well lived (to me).
98elise said:
...
Put it this way, your domestic supply can handle a 13kw shower, or a 9kW hob, or a 3kW kettle with no issues during peak times. Why would you think the local grid couldn't handle car charging? On a 10 hour a car would need less power than my garden lights consume.
...
Did you not read the other thread? Do you not realise this will lead to people starving and/or freezing to death Put it this way, your domestic supply can handle a 13kw shower, or a 9kW hob, or a 3kW kettle with no issues during peak times. Why would you think the local grid couldn't handle car charging? On a 10 hour a car would need less power than my garden lights consume.
...
WestyCarl said:
Only on PH, the bloke who has helped develop paypal, made rockets re-usable and able to land and changed the auto market, is a bullst artist 
I think the answer is in the first part of your statement, he helped develop PayPal....you could view the guy as helping to make re-usable rockets........and helping to change the auto market. He hasn't invented these ideas.t artist I would argue these are the actions of a marketeer not an inventor or visionary others have provided the tech he has brought the components together and marketed them. its entrepreneurial which is defined as 'characterised by the taking of financial risks in the hope of profit; enterprising'
As a visionary...a definition is 'a person with original ideas about what the future will or could be like' probably not a visionary as others have also had views such as this.
So yes Musk is a great Marketeer
Toaster said:
I think the answer is in the first part of your statement, he helped develop PayPal....you could view the guy as helping to make re-usable rockets........and helping to change the auto market. He hasn't invented these ideas.
I would argue these are the actions of a marketeer not an inventor or visionary others have provided the tech he has brought the components together and marketed them. its entrepreneurial which is defined as 'characterised by the taking of financial risks in the hope of profit; enterprising'
As a visionary...a definition is 'a person with original ideas about what the future will or could be like' probably not a visionary as others have also had views such as this.
So yes Musk is a great Marketeer
Regardless of the label. He started and led companies that have created the foremost online payment, started to revolutionize space travel and the auto market.I would argue these are the actions of a marketeer not an inventor or visionary others have provided the tech he has brought the components together and marketed them. its entrepreneurial which is defined as 'characterised by the taking of financial risks in the hope of profit; enterprising'
As a visionary...a definition is 'a person with original ideas about what the future will or could be like' probably not a visionary as others have also had views such as this.
So yes Musk is a great Marketeer
Of course he didn't design the rockets or cars, however by creating and leading both companies with his vision, and currently making huge steps foward I'd suggest he's more than a "Marketeer". (I'd class Richard Branson as a great marketeer)
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff