tesla , the future ?

[RobDickinson]

Like anything there will be a mix of use.

Some will charge up a lot overnight at home (drive/garage - apparently 80% of the country?)
Some will charge up on street with low power 1-5kW, if you only do average miles or less you dont even need to do this every day.
Some will just charge at commercial fast chargers - again once a week for average users, one a day or more for long distance road warriors.

This isnt going to happen overnight, it just needs to keep pace with changes in vehicles so it will be over the next 10-20 years

[anonymous-user]

RobDickinson said:

Like anything there will be a mix of use.

Some will charge up a lot overnight at home (drive/garage - apparently 80% of the country?)
Some will charge up on street with low power 1-5kW, if you only do average miles or less you dont even need to do this every day.
Some will just charge at commercial fast chargers - again once a week for average users, one a day or more for long distance road warriors.

This isnt going to happen overnight, it just needs to keep pace with changes in vehicles so it will be over the next 10-20 years

Exactly.

If you don’t have off street parking and don’t have access to chargers at work or the gym or the shops etc then EVs aren’t going to be for you, plenty of people now buy cars based on where it gets parked.

Once enough people who can charge them easily at home and Work get them, improvements in batteries and charging infrastructure may make them more viable for everyone else.

Perhaps by then they’ll all be automated and you simply won’t own one if you can’t charge it yourself. you’ll just be hiring them by the journey, like house ownership now, autonomous EVs probably won’t be owned by everyone. Most on street parking is in urban areas where infrastructure for EV Ubers (future equivalent) will likely be widespread,

[Zoon]

durbster said:

Ah, I see what you mean.

Yes that's a point. Perhaps charging spots will be fought over in the future like parking spaces are today.

Only more fervently due to their limited number in comparison.

[V8 Fettler]

Zoon said:

durbster said:

Ah, I see what you mean.

Yes that's a point. Perhaps charging spots will be fought over in the future like parking spaces are today.

Only more fervently due to their limited number in comparison.

Increased range reduces this risk. Why seek out a charging point if you've still got a week's range left in the battery?

[Zoon]

V8 Fettler said:

Increased range reduces this risk. Why seek out a charging point if you've still got a week's range left in the battery?

I'm referring to times when you are out of area on a long journey, arriving everywhere with a weeks range would be nice, but probably unrealistic at times.

[V8 Fettler]

Zoon said:

V8 Fettler said:

Increased range reduces this risk. Why seek out a charging point if you've still got a week's range left in the battery?

I'm referring to times when you are out of area on a long journey, arriving everywhere with a weeks range would be nice, but probably unrealistic at times.

For on-street charging, if most local people who travel locally have a week's range left then it's more likely that a traveller who has travelled from afar will find an unused on-street charger because the locals are not pressured to plug-in locally on a daily basis.

[WestyCarl]

When an EV discussion happens there's always people that shout "but what about the range, my nearest charging point is 50 miles away, the grid won't cope....."

I suspect 100 years ago when the first ICE vehicle's started appearing there was a similar discussion. "Not for me mate, I'm sticking with my horse, grass is everywhere"

The infrastructure will keep up with demand for EV's, and I'm sure some enterprising business will use it to generate business. What about row's of charging stations at supermarkets that you can use for free if you shop in store. (Could even be carbon neutral by being powered bu PV cells on the store roof)

So yes at the moment some infrastructure is patchy, however my guess is by 2025 it'll seem more normal to charge an EV than to make a special journey to a smelly forecourt, pick up some dirty nozzle and transfer flammable liquid into your car and be charged £809 for the privilege.

[qube_TA]

wc98 said:

fblm said:

RobDickinson said:

Yep utterly impossible, shame its already been done.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-st...

They wont be fast chargers, just low wattage trickle charge meant for overnight topups I guess

Come on. How many of those can you put on one street? Think about it. That's a 4.6kW charger. A street with 10 lamp posts a side would need a 480A circuit! 480A at 240V! Does that mean anything to you? It's a solution that can only provide a tiny handful of locations in any area. It's so obviously not a solution beyond a few first adopters. Honestly, I just don't think you or many people appreciate how much power these cars need and the challenges of providing it to more than a handful of people at a time on circuits not designed for it.

to be fair it would be quite handy up here in scotland during the winter for keeping the roads and paths clear of snow and ice around housing estates. the council would save a fair whack on wages and grit as well

I can't see a retrofitted streetlamp charger offering anything like 4.6kW, streetlamps use about 100watts of energy, at 240v that's only 2.4amps, to pull 4.6kW that's over 19amps. If you're charging your car at home and it's plugged into a regular wall socket the most you're going to get is 3000watts so I doubt a streetlight circuit is going to have anything like the cabling and infrastructure to do anything more than a very slow trickle charge of a car.

Still, if they can adapt them and make it work it's an interesting idea.

[Zoon]

I'm pretty certain my next car will be 100% electric, most of my mileage is a set routine not a long distance.

[greygoose]

WestyCarl said:

When an EV discussion happens there's always people that shout "but what about the range, my nearest charging point is 50 miles away, the grid won't cope....."

I suspect 100 years ago when the first ICE vehicle's started appearing there was a similar discussion. "Not for me mate, I'm sticking with my horse, grass is everywhere"

The infrastructure will keep up with demand for EV's, and I'm sure some enterprising business will use it to generate business. What about row's of charging stations at supermarkets that you can use for free if you shop in store. (Could even be carbon neutral by being powered bu PV cells on the store roof)

So yes at the moment some infrastructure is patchy, however my guess is by 2025 it'll seem more normal to charge an EV than to make a special journey to a smelly forecourt, pick up some dirty nozzle and transfer flammable liquid into your car and be charged £809 for the privilege.

Exactly, things will change over time, there was an article in the Guardian today about Shell putting charging points in ten of its petrol stations in the UK and acquiring NewMotion which is a European company with 30,000 charging points at homes and offices.

[wc98]

Zoon said:

I'm pretty certain my next car will be 100% electric, most of my mileage is a set routine not a long distance.

as most families have more than one car these days i think electric cars probably make sense for more people than i originally thought. without a doubt an electric car would be perfect for my wife , one charge would last a week no problem. the price of them will need to drop a fair bit before it becomes a viable alternative to her current small petrol hatch though.

[anonymous-user]

qube_TA said:

I can't see a retrofitted streetlamp charger offering anything like 4.6kW, streetlamps use about 100watts of energy, at 240v that's only 2.4amps, to pull 4.6kW that's over 19amps. If you're charging your car at home and it's plugged into a regular wall socket the most you're going to get is 3000watts so I doubt a streetlight circuit is going to have anything like the cabling and infrastructure to do anything more than a very slow trickle charge of a car.

Still, if they can adapt them and make it work it's an interesting idea.

The street lamp charger referred to in the article is 4.6kW... hence our disbelief that it is a remotely viable solution for anything other than a single charge point per lighting circuit.

[98elise]

fblm said:

qube_TA said:

I can't see a retrofitted streetlamp charger offering anything like 4.6kW, streetlamps use about 100watts of energy, at 240v that's only 2.4amps, to pull 4.6kW that's over 19amps. If you're charging your car at home and it's plugged into a regular wall socket the most you're going to get is 3000watts so I doubt a streetlight circuit is going to have anything like the cabling and infrastructure to do anything more than a very slow trickle charge of a car.

Still, if they can adapt them and make it work it's an interesting idea.

The street lamp charger referred to in the article is 4.6kW... hence our disbelief that it is a remotely viable solution for anything other than a single charge point per lighting circuit.

Its fairly certain street lamp circuits could not be used for serious charging. If nothing else it would still have to supply street lamps and would have been sized for that load only.

Street lamps could be used for mounting the outlet, but a seperate supply would almost certainly need to be run.

[RobDickinson]

98elise said:

Its fairly certain street lamp circuits could not be used for serious charging. If nothing else it would still have to supply street lamps and would have been sized for that load only.

Street lamps could be used for mounting the outlet, but a seperate supply would almost certainly need to be run.

Street lights have been sized for sodium lights, if you watched the video these are installed when they are converted to led so that frees up power. There also installed I'm groups of 3.. So not one at a time.

I assume there smart enough to know which others are on the same circuit and manage total draw between them

[Knock_knock]

wc98 said:

as most families have more than one car these days i think electric cars probably make sense for more people than i originally thought. without a doubt an electric car would be perfect for my wife , one charge would last a week no problem. the price of them will need to drop a fair bit before it becomes a viable alternative to her current small petrol hatch though.

That's a pretty common model; keep the "main" car as ICE and replace the 2nd car with an EV. Then you discover how much nicer, cheaper and more convenient the EV is, and start shifting more and more miles from the ICE to the EV. Then it comes time to replace the main car!

There are mega discounts off the list price of most EV's too, meaning that when you take into account the current incentives it becomes a much closer proposition than it might first look.

[EddieSteadyGo]

Knock_knock said:

wc98 said:

as most families have more than one car these days i think electric cars probably make sense for more people than i originally thought. without a doubt an electric car would be perfect for my wife , one charge would last a week no problem. the price of them will need to drop a fair bit before it becomes a viable alternative to her current small petrol hatch though.

That's a pretty common model; keep the "main" car as ICE and replace the 2nd car with an EV. Then you discover how much nicer, cheaper and more convenient the EV is, and start shifting more and more miles from the ICE to the EV. Then it comes time to replace the main car!

There are mega discounts off the list price of most EV's too, meaning that when you take into account the current incentives it becomes a much closer proposition than it might first look.

At the risk of being an EV bore, this is exactly what we do. We use a Nissan Leaf for the short town journeys together with a larger 'normal' car for the family duties. I am on my second Leaf, having purchased them on a 2 year PCP. I just hand it back after 2 years and get a new one. In terms of overall costs, I honestly think it costs a similar price to running a small petrol car when you take all of the costs together.

I certainty wouldn't go back to an ICE car for local commuting. In fact, I've held off replacing my larger car in the hope that we start to see some of the larger capacity battery packs like those used in the Model X become more widely available.

[RobDickinson]

stats say ownership of an EV will be cost comparable 2018 and cheaper for the manufacturer in 2023 or so

[EddieSteadyGo]

RobDickinson said:

stats say ownership of an EV will be cost comparable 2018 and cheaper for the manufacturer in 2023 or so

Yes, I think you are right.

I found myself that the current deals were very good. I think my first Leaf Tekna was circa £150 / month and the second Leaf Tekna 30kwh was around £200 / month, both with small deposits. When you take it all together with the free charger, and the option of a free hire car from Nissan for a few days a year, the minimal running costs of a new car, and the cheap fuel, I think it stacks up pretty well.

The new 40kwh Leaf due soon will make it an even more compelling proposition, assuming Nissan inflate their residuals and so allow good value PCP deals to be offered.

[tuffer]

Governments in Norway and Hong Kong have removed the Tax breaks that Tesla benefitted from making them far less attractive, that has got to hurt them.

[anonymous-user]

As soon as take-up of EV is large enough, all subsidies will then be removed and the true costs of ownership will filter through. The car manufacturers are saying profits in EV are much smaller than a conventional car because of the battery costs, so you can either expect lower car company profits or much more expensive cars.