Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[technodup]

Uppity said:

Interestingly, there have been enough fud supporters to give the SNP 10 years in office (and counting). Are you suggesting that Scotland is consistently full of fuds

It is interesting. I think it's partly down to personalities. For reasons best known to others Sturgeon was seen as 'good'. It's been the Nicola fking Sturgeon show up here for as long as I can remember. Her 'standing up for Scotland' shtick had resonance with many and her media profile is formidable, especially compared with the others. Davidson does well but in Scotland she has the wrong rosette.

Sturgeon really had the perfect route. A loud nobody who failed at several elections, but devolution provided a nice list seat for her without having to win a vote. She then hitched herself to Salmond which allowed her to establish herself and had years to build her profile on the smaller stage, including leading the SNP in the SP when Salmond was the actual leader. Then he chucks it and she takes over, again without having to win a vote.

I think now her 'star' is on the wane though. Failures and false starts will eventually put an end to her. When (if?) Labour (on both sides of the border) get their act together their natural voters will return from the SNP and that should be the end of the SNP as we currently know it, certainly the clamour for independence. Independence is a broad church but it needs a strong SNP to get anywhere near it. They've have been 'blessed' with Salmond and Sturgeon in recent times but there is nobody, and I mean nobody fit to step into their shoes.

Although I've just thought of something maybe even worse than Sturgeon: Joanna Cherry. *shudder*

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Uppity said:

Kccv23highliftcam said:

Strocky said:

I’d suggest watching a recording of the live video and read the official Hansard account, the mind plays tricks

And it’s 5085 new members now

Says the SNP.



you just don't [fking] get it do you.

Everyone in Scotland acknowledges the SNP lie.

Only their fud supporters think it's good.

Interestingly, there have been enough fud supporters to give the SNP 10 years in office (and counting). Are you suggesting that Scotland is consistently full of fuds

Even 1/3 of the SNP's majestic membership voted for BREXIT.

So that's 2/3rds of them fuds. Thanks for pointing that out.

Edited by Kccv23highliftcam on Saturday 16th June 11:10

[Uppity]

r11co said:

Precisely. Even their own supporters know the SNP lie but blind themselves to it or even openly argue it is worth the deception if independence can be achieved. It is becoming a theme though that when anything the SNP say or do is reported in the media it is couched in terms that question the veracity of their output, because they have been caught one-to-many times now trotting out complete bullst (see fracking 'ban' above for one very high profile example). It is the main reason the SNP are in a slow death spiral.

Other political parties get criticised for doing contemptible things, whereas the SNP get criticised for doing the opposite of what they claim to be doing.

As was widely reported, the Scottish Government imposed a moratorium on fracking licenses pending the outcome of the various assessments underway. That moratorium is still in place and discussions/challenges are ongoing at the Court of Session, primarily from Ineos - you know, the company that Westminster has sold 2 licences to for exploration in Central Scotland where commercial quantities of shale oil and gas are thought to be most likely. And where 3.5 million people rather inconveniently live (but hey, they put up with nukes - what's a little fracking?).

No doubt you're also aware that the description of a 'ban' was used by Ineos and the mainstream press. They were referring to the refusal of planning permission from local authorities for fracking-related construction, as recommended by the Scottish Government, as being an 'effective ban' (incidentally, an eventual ban being something that 99% of the 60,000 members of the public who responded to the consultation endorse. Fuds all, presumably)

Slow death spiral continuing with membership up 7300+ (and a quick twitter check will tell you how many of those are new)

[Uppity]

wc98 said:

there are plenty like me that would like to see an end to those devolved administrations. they are nothing but an ineffective waste of money filled with a bunch of third raters that couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

Brexit, anyone?

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Uppity said:

r11co said:

Precisely. Even their own supporters know the SNP lie but blind themselves to it or even openly argue it is worth the deception if independence can be achieved. It is becoming a theme though that when anything the SNP say or do is reported in the media it is couched in terms that question the veracity of their output, because they have been caught one-to-many times now trotting out complete bullst (see fracking 'ban' above for one very high profile example). It is the main reason the SNP are in a slow death spiral.

Other political parties get criticised for doing contemptible things, whereas the SNP get criticised for doing the opposite of what they claim to be doing.

As was widely reported, the Scottish Government imposed a moratorium on fracking licenses pending the outcome of the various assessments underway. That moratorium is still in place and discussions/challenges are ongoing at the Court of Session, primarily from Ineos - you know, the company that Westminster has sold 2 licences to for exploration in Central Scotland where commercial quantities of shale oil and gas are thought to be most likely. And where 3.5 million people rather inconveniently live (but hey, they put up with nukes - what's a little fracking?).

No doubt you're also aware that the description of a 'ban' was used by Ineos and the mainstream press. They were referring to the refusal of planning permission from local authorities for fracking-related construction, as recommended by the Scottish Government, as being an 'effective ban' (incidentally, an eventual ban being something that 99% of the 60,000 members of the public who responded to the consultation endorse. Fuds all, presumably)

Slow death spiral continuing with membership up 7300+ (and a quick twitter check will tell you how many of those are new)

From the mouth of the first minister...

"The ban on new nuclear energy in Scotland is done through planning powers and that is exactly what we are proposing for the ban on fracking. Let me be clear, because to some ears, it will sound as if some members are dancing on the head of a pin: fracking is being banned in Scotland – end of story.” She later reiterated her point, saying: “Those who, like me, do not believe fracking should go ahead in Scotland should welcome the fact that fracking is banned in Scotland.”

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-montei...

SNP = lies, lies and even more......lies...

[r11co]

Uppity said:

As was widely reported, the Scottish Government imposed a moratorium on fracking licenses pending the outcome of the various assessments underway. That moratorium is still in place and discussions/challenges are ongoing at the Court of Session, primarily from Ineos - you know, the company that Westminster has sold 2 licences to for exploration in Central Scotland where commercial quantities of shale oil and gas are thought to be most likely. And where 3.5 million people rather inconveniently live (but hey, they put up with nukes - what's a little fracking?).

No doubt you're also aware that the description of a 'ban' was used by Ineos and the mainstream press. They were referring to the refusal of planning permission from local authorities for fracking-related construction, as recommended by the Scottish Government, as being an 'effective ban' (incidentally, an eventual ban being something that 99% of the 60,000 members of the public who responded to the consultation endorse. Fuds all, presumably)

Nicola Sturgeon said:

Fracking will be banned, end of story.

You've summarised the SNP spin brilliantly up there, but everyone who can see beyond this spin knows (as we have been saying in this thread for years) that the SNP wanted to create the illusion of a ban to keep their dishonest alliance with the Greens (another bunch of liars) intact while leaving the door open to fracking in future, because all that oil and gas wealth will be the only thing stopping indy Scotland descending into the third world.

Ineos know this because they've signed multiple contracts with the Scottish government, and their legal challenge is their way of exposing the hypocrisy - quite successfully I may add.

The issue is not whether there is a ban or not (as you seem to be arguing). The issue is that the SNP lie to everyone in different directions to try and keep them all onside, then go into blind denial and spin or even get the lawyers out to try and hide the truth when they are caught out over and over again Their latest tactic is to illegally frustrate the operations of the Freedom of Information Commissioner.

Generally other politicians resign under these circumstances (see Amber Rudd).

Edited by r11co on Saturday 16th June 11:20

[r11co]

technodup said:

It is interesting. I think it's partly down to personalities. For reasons best known to others Sturgeon was seen as 'good'. It's been the Nicola fking Sturgeon show up here for as long as I can remember. Her 'standing up for Scotland' shtick had resonance with many and her media profile is formidable, especially compared with the others.

[Kccv23highliftcam]

r11co said:

technodup said:

It is interesting. I think it's partly down to personalities. For reasons best known to others Sturgeon was seen as 'good'. It's been the Nicola fking Sturgeon show up here for as long as I can remember. Her 'standing up for Scotland' shtick had resonance with many and her media profile is formidable, especially compared with the others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIOj6EyRs8

Owned!

[Starfighter]

Is she a closet Tory? Wrecking the SNP from the inside so Ruth Davidson can sweep away the labour block and lead to the glorious blue revolution in the name of Thatcher?

Edited by Starfighter on Saturday 16th June 12:20

[r11co]

In other news, Wannabee Socialist Mhairi Black learns to picket.

That is just so wrong on so many levels. That's my MP, and I didn't think the little hypocrite could disgust me any more than she had.

[Alpacaman]

Having heard what Mhari Black was doing, I definitely don't want to see it.


Anyway on top of everything else it seems, despite sitting on it for years, that the growth commission report isn't worth the paper it is written on-

https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2018/06/04/errors...

https://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2018/06/growth-com...

[Uppity]

r11co said:

In other news, Wannabee Socialist Mhairi Black learns to picket.

That is just so wrong on so many levels. That's my MP, and I didn't think the little hypocrite could disgust me any more than she had.

Yup, not pleasant. But Mundell took it quite a bit further and he represents Scotland

[Uppity]

Kccv23highliftcam said:

From the mouth of the first minister...

"The ban on new nuclear energy in Scotland is done through planning powers and that is exactly what we are proposing for the ban on fracking. Let me be clear, because to some ears, it will sound as if some members are dancing on the head of a pin: fracking is being banned in Scotland – end of story.” She later reiterated her point, saying: “Those who, like me, do not believe fracking should go ahead in Scotland should welcome the fact that fracking is banned in Scotland.”[/b]

...which is exactly what I said.

Semantics aside, no view on my other point, i.e Westminster granting fracking exploration licenses for the most densely populated area of Scotland?

[Alpacaman]

Uppity said:

Semantics aside, no view on my other point, i.e Westminster granting fracking exploration licenses for the most densely populated area of Scotland?

Get a fking grip. Oh poor wee Scotland being attacked by nasty Westminster deliberately giving licenses so Scots are driven out of their homes. This is why I despair of nationalists, the utter lack of grip on reality. Where would you want them to frack? Somewhere there is no shale? Let me guess it will be nasty Tories dragging people out of their homes so they can drill in their front rooms. Strange isn't it how even after 10 years of snp mismanagement everything is still the fault of someone else. It's not even like Westminster will have any say over if fracking actually happens.

[Uppity]

technodup said:

When (if?) Labour (on both sides of the border) get their act together their natural voters will return from the SNP and that should be the end of the SNP as we currently know it, certainly the clamour for independence. Independence is a broad church but it needs a strong SNP to get anywhere near it. They've have been 'blessed' with Salmond and Sturgeon in recent times but there is nobody, and I mean nobody fit to step into their shoes.

It's an interesting idea, but if Labour wants its natural voters back they have to give them a reason. Scottish Labour is obviously subjugate to UK Labour and UK Labour have abstained on pretty much every significant and highly visible issue in recent times. I certainly have no clue on where they stand on Brexit, immigration, zero hour contracts - the list goes on. And I follow politics - so if I'm not getting it, it's a reasonable assumption your average ex-Labour voter isn't being persuaded. And yes, I would welcome a significant opposition to the Tories at Westminster, but they have to actually oppose and not abstain

As you say, independence is a broad church, ranging from English Scots for Independence through to EU for Independence and many others. The SNP is certainly the main platform but independence is certainly not all about the SNP. And the growth of the independence movement outside the SNP is now pretty significant

[Uppity]

r11co said:

Ineos know this because they've signed multiple contracts with the Scottish government, and their legal challenge is their way of exposing the hypocrisy - quite successfully I may add.

Are you saying the Scottish Govt has multiple fracking-related contracts with Ineos? That's interesting - any examples?

[technodup]

Uppity said:

As you say, independence is a broad church, ranging from English Scots for Independence through to EU for Independence and many others. The SNP is certainly the main platform but independence is certainly not all about the SNP. And the growth of the independence movement outside the SNP is now pretty significant

Significant in the sense that more SNP members is, i.e. not very. If the SNP don't have the seats at Holyrood how do you get to independence?

As for fracking, if there's money down there we should be getting it out. I couldn't care less if someone loses a bit of garden or the odd tap catches fire. We ain't rich enough to leave billions in the ground. And why do we love oil but hate gas? Fossils are fossils, surely? You think some of that lovely SNP oil doesn't get in the sea? Remember Piper Alpha?

Not like the SNP to be inconsistent.

[Uppity]

Alpacaman said:

Get a fking grip. Oh poor wee Scotland being attacked by nasty Westminster deliberately giving licenses so Scots are driven out of their homes. This is why I despair of nationalists, the utter lack of grip on reality.

The licenses were granted by Westminster - which bit are you having trouble with?

Alpacaman said:

Where would you want them to frack? Somewhere there is no shale?

Not near to large population centres would be a good start

Alpacaman said:

Let me guess it will be nasty Tories dragging people out of their homes so they can drill in their front rooms.

I think you questioned my grip on reality?

Alpacaman said:

Strange isn't it how even after 10 years of snp mismanagement everything is still the fault of someone else.

3 elections on the trot - must be doing something right. Free tertiary education? Free prescriptions? NHS wages higher than the rest of the UK? Better A&E performance than the rest of the UK? no Bedroom Tax, Carers Allowance, Free At Home Personal Care, world leader in Clean Energy...seems like this 'mismanagement' is striking a chord with voters

Alpacaman said:

It's not even like Westminster will have any say over if fracking actually happens.

Westminster will have final say under on numerous new areas under current Westminster proposals - and it is only a matter of time before they start calling in and overruling the current planning objections.

Just to be clear, the SNP is very far from perfect - but it is dedicated to supporting Scotland and demonstrates that with its action. That's what more and more people are seeing everyday

[r11co]

Uppity said:

Free tertiary education?

...was introduced by the previous Labour-LibDem coalition. Salmond likes to take credit for it, but it was never his idea and this is just another example of the Nationalists' loose grip on the truth.

Uppity said:

NHS wages higher than the rest of the UK?

Soon won't be the case unless they match the latest rUK NHS pay settlement (which ScotGov are prevaricating over), plus after tax most Scots NHS staff are no better or worse off than their rUK counterparts due to income tax increases.

Uppity said:

no Bedroom Tax,

'So called' bedroom tax, you mean as there is no such thing so no achievement can be claimed getting rid of it, the term being a sensationalist folly created by the SNats to provoke unnecessary outrage, just like 'so called rape clause'. This was just an example of Scottish Goverment using Barnet Formula money to subsidise benefits in order to reverse reforms. Pity they still don't want to take full responsibility for welfare despite demanding and being granted control over it in as part of the Scotland Act.

Uppity said:

Just to be clear, the SNP is very far from perfect

No one is disputing that.

Uppity said:

but it is dedicated to supporting Scotland

Nope, it is dedicated to achieving independence, and of late has exercised a process of causing harm to Scotland in an attempt to provoke people into supporting independence. " Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons" was how Kenny MacAskill put it.

[Alpacaman]

Uppity said:

Alpacaman said:

Get a fking grip. Oh poor wee Scotland being attacked by nasty Westminster deliberately giving licenses so Scots are driven out of their homes. This is why I despair of nationalists, the utter lack of grip on reality.

The licenses were granted by Westminster - which bit are you having trouble with?

Alpacaman said:

Where would you want them to frack? Somewhere there is no shale?

Not near to large population centres would be a good start

Alpacaman said:

Let me guess it will be nasty Tories dragging people out of their homes so they can drill in their front rooms.

I think you questioned my grip on reality?

Alpacaman said:

Strange isn't it how even after 10 years of snp mismanagement everything is still the fault of someone else.

3 elections on the trot - must be doing something right. Free tertiary education? Free prescriptions? NHS wages higher than the rest of the UK? Better A&E performance than the rest of the UK? no Bedroom Tax, Carers Allowance, Free At Home Personal Care, world leader in Clean Energy...seems like this 'mismanagement' is striking a chord with voters

Alpacaman said:

It's not even like Westminster will have any say over if fracking actually happens.

Westminster will have final say under on numerous new areas under current Westminster proposals - and it is only a matter of time before they start calling in and overruling the current planning objections.

Just to be clear, the SNP is very far from perfect - but it is dedicated to supporting Scotland and demonstrates that with its action. That's what more and more people are seeing everyday

Where to start, free education/free prescriptions- no such thing, nothing is free, everything has to be paid for. So really just a benefit for people who could easily afford to pay for it. NHS wages- funded by Barnett. Bedroom tax, is perfectly reasonable, why should a single person be in a big house, while a family are in a B&B? Less people from poor backgrounds in further education thanks to the snp.

World leader in clean energy? Millions lost on tidal power, areas spoilt with windmills that require massive subsidies, while snp claim we will be millionaires from oil. 3 elections and now they have a minority government, 21 Westminster seats lost. They will be out at the next election. And yet again you are confused, the SNP are dedicated to supporting people who support independence not Scotland, remember independence transcends everything.

Final decisions on fracking will always be made in Scotland and claiming otherwise is nonsense. Again stop blaming other for decisions made in Scotland.