Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[gofasterrosssco]

Uppity said:

andy_s said:

^ This is one of the reasons I can't get behind the self-determination argument; for me i. Nationalism in itself isn't a concept I adhere too; it's generally been quite bad for the world and strikes me as more usually used as a false flag cover for more nefarious purpose as it is easily and emotionally swallowed. Be careful.

There's an interesting article on nationalism with a small 'n; versus Nationalism. It's written by Chris Deerin (a pretty staunch pro-UK supporter) and has an interesting perspective from an Oxford Uni Professor - Worth a quick read.

I think anybody that lives in Scotland knows the SNP are not in the same vein as more extreme nationalist entities both today and historically, but the fact is that they still operate on the basic 'nationalist' fundamentals, such as priority of national sovereignty over practical cooperation (i.e. the UK), pandering to basic tribalist and more extreme notions within the wider 'movement', masquerading as a 'revolutionary' political element (when they want to essentially stick to existing structures, e.g. the EU and NATO), centralisation of power for political control etc.

WRT the article, interesting that you view (and in fact propose) that the writer is speaking sense, as if the article was about the ill's of nationalism or the SNP, he would be derided as an out of touch, Londen-centric Tory who should be ignored. I would partly agree that he is out of touch, given the gloss he seems to paint over the less wholesome aspects of nationalism that the SNP display.

[Strocky]

Alpacaman said:

Article says- "You don’t have to want Scottish independence to appreciate today’s SNP as a significant emblem of decency, progressiveness and social conscience." Strange I am unaware of any Unionist who would regard the SNP as any of those things. This would be the same party that hounded a decent man to his death (Charles Kennedy), who are more than happy for their cybernats to attack anyone who dares disagree, calls for boycotts of any company who has a different view to theirs. A party who avoids at all costs freedom of information requests, who have utterly divided Scotland and done everything possible to create divisions with our neighbours. Nothing decent or progressive that I can see.

Was shocking what happened to Charles Kennedy, but to extrapolate that to every supporter of independence is a tad rich when the right wing fascist branch of Unionism was disowned and disavowed by every Unionist poster on this thread, cakeism FTW

[r11co]

Strocky said:

Was shocking what happened to Charles Kennedy, but to extrapolate that to every supporter of independence is a tad rich when the right wing fascist branch of Unionism was disowned and disavowed by every Unionist poster on this thread.

Ah, the old 'both sides just as bad' argument'. The issue was that the CyberNats didn't just target the 'right wing fascist branch unionists'. As far as they were concerned anyone was fair game for their indignation/scorn/death threats if they dared to air an opinion that didn't align with their vision.

Michelle Mone/JK Rowling/Charles Kennedy (RIP)/David Ramsay(RIP)/George Laird/Nick Robinson - there's a long list and these are just a few of the better known victims. Also, the actionable comments didn't just come from the outlier scum - a lot originated from or was broadcast to wider audience by high profile members and representatives of the party such as Neil Hay, Natalie McGarry, Paul Monaghan and Pete Wishart (interesting and very telling that three of them are now off the books thanks to the voters, and another's coat hangs on a shoogly peg).

Charles Kennedy was targeted specifically because Blackford didn't like the fact that Kennedy was being honest about Blackford's past - a past Blackford knew could make him appear unpopular with the electorate and didn't fit with the image the SNP were trying to present of themselves.

Its the indignation that grates - the genuine belief by many/most Scottish Nationalists that they are by definition righteous and cannot be questioned or doubted, yet they have the god-given right to smear and abuse anyone who does question them that wholly turned me and many others off them, permanently.

Edited by r11co on Friday 22 June 12:18

[gofasterrosssco]

Strocky said:

So wee Rooth the Mooth after stating that she's standing up for those Scots (on £33k a year or more) being taxed more than the rUK thanks to the Scots Gov, she's now all for increasing the taxes to fund Maybot's Brexit Dividend (sic)

You couldn't mark her neck with a blowtorch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDujykO9yBM

To be fair, these are two slightly different points on tax:

1) Scotland risks becoming less attractive to invest in (or more, going the other way) if we start to differentiate ourselves from rUK and become a slightly higher tax enclave

2) I 'presume' May is talking about increasing taxes on a UK wide basis. We don't know the mechanism yet, but if its say a penny on the base rate of income tax, the Scottish Gov. can choose to match this, reduce or increase. Either way, it doesn't necessarily affect the tax payed by Scots. That will be subject to our use of tax varying powers, as exercised recently. Devolution in action

[Alpacaman]

Uppity said:

You have both made a deliberate choice to use the long-term illness of a man; an illness that blighted his adult life and eventually killed him, in an attempt to score a political point. I now know more about you than I would have cared to.

There isn't really anything else to say.

So the party you clearly love decided to use a mans illness to attack him repeatedly over a long period, and continually questioned his attendance at Westminster, and these were party members with close links to his opponent, not some random cybernat. Something the party could have stopped instantly if they chose to, but they didn't, thereby legitimising the behaviour.

Yet somehow you can't see this and try and turn the blame on me. Just so that you are utterly clear on this, I think the fact that his illness was used to attack him was an appalling and revolting thing to do, the fact his was harassed and treated this way is not acceptable, but I would say the same if it had been an SNP MP being attacked. The concern is that by ignoring something, that even Strocky didn't think was right, it means you think what they did was acceptable. So do you condemn what they did to him? Or does that tell us a lot about you?

Strocky, I absolutely accept there are right wing flag waving nutters who should be locked away for there own good, who say and do unacceptable things, but does that make what the SNP do right? Should we not expect more of all politicians and their supporters?

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Strocky said:

So wee Rooth the Mooth after stating that she's standing up for those Scots (on £33k a year or more) being taxed more than the rUK thanks to the Scots Gov, she's now all for increasing the taxes to fund Maybot's Brexit Dividend (sic)

You couldn't mark her neck with a blowtorch

Quoted for posterity.

Meanwhile..

[technodup]

gofasterrosssco said:

2) I 'presume' May is talking about increasing taxes on a UK wide basis. We don't know the mechanism yet, but if its say a penny on the base rate of income tax,

I can't be the only one who's pretty unimpressed by the May/Hammond/Davidson wing intent on increasing taxes at every turn.

What's wrong with liberty, low taxes and a small state?

[simoid]

technodup said:

can't be the only one who's pretty unimpressed by the May/Hammond/Davidson wing intent on increasing taxes at every turn.

What's wrong with liberty, low taxes and a small state?

Politically difficult to cut stuff?

[technodup]

That depends, it's all about how it's presented. I mean who wouldn't want to be richer and have more freedom ffs? "The Tories will make you richer by cutting your income tax".

The problem is they're mad control freaks and spenders akin to New Labour. All about more government, control and spending.

This latest NHS bks for example. Why £20bn? Why not 10 or 30? The NHS could swallow £120bn and not blink. We should be looking to depoliticise it for starters, then have an honest look at what it should be doing and what it shouldn't, then look at funding options. ALL funding options.

Problem is to do that you need a Thatcher type who isn't afraid to make an unpopular decision and stick it out. And the current lot are a bunch of utter stebags.

[Kccv23highliftcam]

The Scottish Government underspent its budget by almost half a billion pounds in 2017/18, Finance Secretary Derek Mackay told Holyrood today.

So. Councils facing massive deficits in funding, NHS Tayside all but bankrupt, and public services going to the wall.


FOR WHAT. Sheer incompetence .....OR.....


..Scottish Conservative shadow finance secretary Murdo Fraser claimed the Finance Secretary was having to set money aside to pay for future shortfalls in the tax take. Mr Fraser said: “Derek Mackay might like to fool us all into thinking this £453 million underspend figure is an insignificant sum. “But it’s worth noting that it’s higher than what the SNP’s independence blueprint said it would cost to create a separate state. The finance secretary is having to put money aside to meet a projected shortfall in tax revenues due to Scottish economic underperformance. “If the SNP could grow the Scottish economy at least at the same rate as the rest of the UK, there would be hundreds of millions more to spend on public services and reduce the tax burden on hardworking people and businesses.” New forecasts published by the Scottish Fiscal Commission last month anticipated Scotland’s overall revenue from devolved taxation will be just over £1.7 billion lower for 2018/19 to 2022/23 than was forecast in February. But Mr Mackay said income from devolved taxes had increased for the second year running.

Ref: : https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-go...

[simoid]

Wan joab - spend money

[r11co]

simoid said:

Wan joab - spend money

Yeah, but it's money they don't have, not because of 'Toaree Austerity' but Derek McKay/SNP stupidity. MacKay admitted when questioned that he had never heard of the Laffer Curve.

[ellroy]

technodup said:

That depends, it's all about how it's presented. I mean who wouldn't want to be richer and have more freedom ffs? "The Tories will make you richer by cutting your income tax".

The problem is they're mad control freaks and spenders akin to New Labour. All about more government, control and spending.

This latest NHS bks for example. Why £20bn? Why not 10 or 30? The NHS could swallow £120bn and not blink. We should be looking to depoliticise it for starters, then have an honest look at what it should be doing and what it shouldn't, then look at funding options. ALL funding options.

Problem is to do that you need a Thatcher type who isn't afraid to make an unpopular decision and stick it out. And the current lot are a bunch of utter stebags.

Spot. On.

[DAVEVO9]

[Starfighter]

Give her independence. It’s not wise to upset a wookie.

[Hainey]

Starfighter said:

Give her independence. It’s not wise to upset a wookie.

As long as it's in a Galaxy far, far away then fine with me.

[finnie]

NRS said:

We are equal. We have approximately the same number of people voting for a MP as anywhere else in the UK. Would you say it is fair if say Wales could affect Scotland, just because they should also have a equal voice? People also knew this would be the case in 2014, it wasn't a big surprise we have a lot less MPs in total than the rest of the UK - so that is not a promise broken.

We also have our own parliment who can do a lot of their own policies. And often do apply them, often at the local level against the wishes of the locals (take Trump's golf course in Aberdeenshire as an example). So if Westminister is evil for forcing its views on Scotland, why is it ok the SNP do on local areas in Scotland? Surely that's just evil Edinburgh MPs dictating their will on the people, as the SNP complain Westminister does?

Having read through the last few pages I note the last paragraph here was not commented on. I have always spoken about this but the whole system revolves around scale. Parliament in westminster does not take the "countries" into account, it is 300 odd seats who each represent their constituents. This covers the entire UK. There is not a four way vote for all decision

So the SNP dont like it and demand that their permission be given or even get their vote in a four way vote for all UK decisions????

OK, lets go independent and do the same for Scotland. How will we do it? Highlands and Islands get a vote, East cost north of the Forth get one vote and we can split the south up for two votes, one for Glasgow and one for Aberdeen. That way all Scottish parliament decisions must get agreement from all 4 areas. Or would it be as per Nicolas current request where "direct permission be gained". Excellent, lets have Highland and Island having power ofveto, sounds good to me.

OR will we go independant and follow the westminster model to find that the southern populous has by far more strength than the remote North

[Order66]

DAVEVO9 said:

Why are the personal attacks on politicians necessary? This is the kind of ste we gave the cybernats hell for during the referrendum - why lower the tone of a "debate" with this pish?

[B'stard Child]

Order66 said:

DAVEVO9 said:

Why are the personal attacks on politicians necessary? This is the kind of ste we gave the cybernats hell for during the referrendum - why lower the tone of a "debate" with this pish?

Cos she's an irritating little sod

[Hainey]

Order66 said:

Why are the personal attacks on politicians necessary? This is the kind of ste we gave the cybernats hell for during the referrendum - why lower the tone of a "debate" with this pish?

There is a saying that politics is show business for ugly people and there is more than a degree of truth in that. Hence why as with show business your personality defines the treatment you recieve.

Take Charles Kennedy as an example. Everyone knew he had severe issues with alcohol for years before his death but as he was a principled and dignified man he was treated with respect and quite some kindness by both his constituency and the wider press. Regardless of your views on his political leanings he was a good man who genuinely loved those he represented.

With Ms Sturgeon however, she has proven herself to be an unpleasant liar and peddler of divisive, self centred policy and whom has shown herself to have the moral depth of a Moroccan street peddler. Left wing. Right wing. Green. Business focused. For the people. For big business. For dodgy analytics and false accounting. For lies over Europe. For blind eyes to the child prostitutes being pimped by immigrants in her own ward. For meaningless junkets to Europe to undermine the work of our elected prime minister.

What one are you today Nicola? Do tell.

So now she reaps as she sows.