Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[Dinoboy]

r11co said:

Oh, and all of this whitabootery is likely to be very post-2021 with the likelihood that Sturgeon won't be in a position to ask for anything by then anyway.

Edited by r11co on Monday 17th September 14:46

Indyref2 would be fair enough if the SNP campaign prior to 21' election on the basis that them being returned with a majority is grounds for public support for a referendum.

[Sway]

There isn't going to be a no deal brexit...

All we're seeing is business as usual - where for 4/5ths of the negotiation period the policians puff their chests out with their red lines (whilst the civil services get on with the boring technical stuff that's not contentious) then as the deadline looms, briefings are held on the catastrophic consequences of no agreement - giving the politicians the mandate to comprise and negotiate to an eleventh hour agreement.

Every single EU negotiation has followed this path.

[pingu393]

Edinburger said:

Interesting views, r11co. You could be absolutely correct. However, in the event of no deal and in the event of markets falling, property prices crashing, GDP hit, catostrophic impact for jobs, standards of living, etc., etc., it cant be out of the question for Nicola to pipe up with "we didnt vote for this" and hey-ho indyref2.

From what I have seen around the world, there is what I will call a critical mass of the "haves" to the "have-nots". The "haves" pay for all the infrastructure and to support the "have-nots".

I believe that the UK has this critical mass, I don't believe that Scotland does. Wee Eck tried to convince us Scotland had critical mass, but needed to over inflate the value and volume of black gold to do it. He never told us what would happen when the North Sea ran dry?

[r11co]

Sway said:

There isn't going to be a no deal brexit...

All we're seeing is business as usual - where for 4/5ths of the negotiation period the policians puff their chests out with their red lines (whilst the civil services get on with the boring technical stuff that's not contentious) then as the deadline looms, briefings are held on the catastrophic consequences of no agreement - giving the politicians the mandate to comprise and negotiate to an eleventh hour agreement.

Every single EU negotiation has followed this path.

I agree entirely, and this is another reason why the SNP faithful are being played for fools. Mike Russell was chosen for the job of Brexit dogwhistler for the SNats because he's at the twilight of his political career and can afford to talk hyberbole and ste only to be proven wrong at the end.

Edited by r11co on Monday 17th September 21:51

[B210bandit]

Edinburger said:

Interesting views, r11co. You could be absolutely correct. However, in the event of no deal and in the event of markets falling, property prices crashing, GDP hit, catostrophic impact for jobs, standards of living, etc., etc., it cant be out of the question for Nicola to pipe up with "we didnt vote for this" and hey-ho indyref2.

A not unlikely scenario.

Following independence, it is highly unlikely the UK will choose to cease trading with Scotland. It would simply not be either party's interest to do so. Those peddling the project fear stuff need a reality check. Like the last referendum, it will be cool assessment of whether the country is better off in the Union or out of it. Unless the UK really pulls something out of the hat in the next few years (trade deals of benefit to Scotland), and in the absence of the Labour and the Conservatives engage in another massive Better Together campaign, this will be won by default by the indy side. Support just simply isn't falling back to early 2014 levels; it's staying up. Heck, even the bookies have stopped backing the Union these days!

It's good that many in Scotland have been giving thought to the future state of their country. It prepares and strengthens a country for change. I fear for the remainder of the UK. There is far, far too much complacency as to its continued existence, as if the country is somehow immune from history.

[Strocky]

https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-ou...

Thank god we've the broad shoulders of WM to take the black curse away from our haunted isle

[technodup]

B210bandit said:

Edinburger said:

Interesting views, r11co. You could be absolutely correct. However, in the event of no deal and in the event of markets falling, property prices crashing, GDP hit, catostrophic impact for jobs, standards of living, etc., etc., it cant be out of the question for Nicola to pipe up with "we didnt vote for this" and hey-ho indyref2.

A not unlikely scenario.

Following independence, it is highly unlikely the UK will choose to cease trading with Scotland. It would simply not be either party's interest to do so. Those peddling the project fear stuff need a reality check.

Are you fking listening to yourself?

So the major economy of the UK will leave the EU and armageddon will hit us from all angles, but tiny wee Scotland will leave the UK and for the exact same reasons everything will be rosy?

Nobody believes that.

[dromond]

technodup said:

B210bandit said:

Edinburger said:

Interesting views, r11co. You could be absolutely correct. However, in the event of no deal and in the event of markets falling, property prices crashing, GDP hit, catostrophic impact for jobs, standards of living, etc., etc., it cant be out of the question for Nicola to pipe up with "we didnt vote for this" and hey-ho indyref2.

A not unlikely scenario.

Following independence, it is highly unlikely the UK will choose to cease trading with Scotland. It would simply not be either party's interest to do so. Those peddling the project fear stuff need a reality check.

Are you fking listening to yourself?

So the major economy of the UK will leave the EU and armageddon will hit us from all angles, but tiny wee Scotland will leave the UK and for the exact same reasons everything will be rosy?

Nobody believes that.

Oh yes they do, Turdyin's little brainwashed believers.

[r11co]

Strocky said:

https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-ou...

Thank god we've the broad shoulders of WM to take the black curse away from our haunted isle

Yeah, so Norway kept a part of oil production nationalised and raised X amount of public revenue as a result, yet they still have higher taxes and a lower standard of living than the UK.

Governance much?

The article is an argument for/against nationalised industry (and is using a very restricted metric to measure success of one over the other - government revenue is not a measure of national wealth unless you are a true Citizen Smith and think the populous shouldn't have their own wealth too).

This has bugger all to do with independence (plus fat Eck was/is a strong proponent of the private sector and wouldn't have taken oil into public hands if he'd won).

Nice squirrel though.

ETA. I read this in the comments section of an article about the embarrassingly poorly attended and cringe-worthily organised and hosted "Hope over Fear" rally in Glasgow at the weekend....

The Herald/Michael Kent said:

The Yes movement has always nurtured the seeds of its own destruction. The SNP chose to make the Conservatives the enemy and to blame them for everything that goes wrong in Scotland. That's the strategy of a protest movement but the SNP have been running Holyrood for over a decade now and they have never made the transition to being a party of government.

The socialist marchers should have been protesting about the SNP failures but because independence overrides everything they can't.

They are left still trying to blame the Conservatives, but the voters aren't convinced. There is likely to be a general election in the next year. The Conservatives will implode after Brexit and Labour will sweep into power. What then for the anti-tory nationalists? Their whole case for independence crumbles.

It's a fair point. The SNP's strategy has always been to portray independence as an antidote to Conservatism (even now the term Brexit has to carry the inflammatory but meaningless 'hard Tory' prefix every time it is uttered by Sturgeon and her acolytes).

The biggest threat to the independence dream is a UK Labour Government by pure dint of the SNP's support being swelled by people sold on their fake socialist narrative. You expose yourself as one of those independence-as-a-proxy-for-socialism (aka. Tory Scum Out) supporters when you post crap like that above, Strocky.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 18th September 10:17

[Leithen]

technodup said:

B210bandit said:

Edinburger said:

Interesting views, r11co. You could be absolutely correct. However, in the event of no deal and in the event of markets falling, property prices crashing, GDP hit, catostrophic impact for jobs, standards of living, etc., etc., it cant be out of the question for Nicola to pipe up with "we didnt vote for this" and hey-ho indyref2.

A not unlikely scenario.

Following independence, it is highly unlikely the UK will choose to cease trading with Scotland. It would simply not be either party's interest to do so. Those peddling the project fear stuff need a reality check.

Are you fking listening to yourself?

So the major economy of the UK will leave the EU and armageddon will hit us from all angles, but tiny wee Scotland will leave the UK and for the exact same reasons everything will be rosy?

Nobody believes that.

Don't worry - there will be magic money trees discovered that will completely eliminate any deficit and also produce a viable currency that the world markets think is just great. Then good old Europe will fall over itself to admit us because we've passed all their tests.

Or not.

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Leithen said:

technodup said:

B210bandit said:

Edinburger said:

Interesting views, r11co. You could be absolutely correct. However, in the event of no deal and in the event of markets falling, property prices crashing, GDP hit, catostrophic impact for jobs, standards of living, etc., etc., it cant be out of the question for Nicola to pipe up with "we didnt vote for this" and hey-ho indyref2.

A not unlikely scenario.

Following independence, it is highly unlikely the UK will choose to cease trading with Scotland. It would simply not be either party's interest to do so. Those peddling the project fear stuff need a reality check.

Are you fking listening to yourself?

So the major economy of the UK will leave the EU and armageddon will hit us from all angles, but tiny wee Scotland will leave the UK and for the exact same reasons everything will be rosy?

Nobody believes that.

Don't worry - there will be magic money trees discovered that will completely eliminate any deficit and also produce a viable currency that the world markets think is just great. Then good old Europe will fall over itself to admit us because we've passed all their tests.

Or not.

It is not inconceivable that the EU may be using sturgeon and Eire to do their dirty work for them.

[r11co]

Kccv23highliftcam said:

It is not inconceivable that the EU may be using sturgeon and Eire to do their dirty work for them.

That's a conspiracy theory/stretch of the imagination too far IMO. The EU as I said earlier is a technocratic organisation and doesn't give a hoot about Ireland's history - the issue is only arising because of their strict bureaucratic approach to things.

[Ian974]

B210bandit said:

A not unlikely scenario.

Following independence, it is highly unlikely the UK will choose to cease trading with Scotland. It would simply not be either party's interest to do so. Those peddling the project fear stuff need a reality check.

Does the same argument apply if you switch UK for EU and Scotland for UK?

[mcdjl]

Edinburger said:

Interesting views, r11co. You could be absolutely correct. However, in the event of no deal and in the event of markets falling, property prices crashing, GDP hit, catostrophic impact for jobs, standards of living, etc., etc., it cant be out of the question for Nicola to pipe up with "we didnt vote for this" and hey-ho indyref2.

Its never out of the question for Nicola to pipe up with that. Uk gets paid by the EU to leave: 'we didn't vote for this...'. Uk pays to leave: 'we didn't vote for....'. UK gets a taps that flow milk, honey and champagne direct from the EU offices: 'this isn't buckfast....'

[B210bandit]

Ian974 said:

B210bandit said:

A not unlikely scenario.

Following independence, it is highly unlikely the UK will choose to cease trading with Scotland. It would simply not be either party's interest to do so. Those peddling the project fear stuff need a reality check.

Does the same argument apply if you switch UK for EU and Scotland for UK?

Yes.

[Strocky]

r11co said:

Strocky said:

https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-ou...

Thank god we've the broad shoulders of WM to take the black curse away from our haunted isle

Yeah, so Norway kept a part of oil production nationalised and raised X amount of public revenue as a result, yet they still have higher taxes and a lower standard of living than the UK.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 18th September 10:17

Stop reading at that errant nonsense

What metric are you applying to this throwaway line?
Unemployment, health care, maternity pay, holiday pay, sick leave allowance or the cost of a pint?

[r11co]

B210bandit said:

Ian974 said:

B210bandit said:

A not unlikely scenario.

Following independence, it is highly unlikely the UK will choose to cease trading with Scotland. It would simply not be either party's interest to do so. Those peddling the project fear stuff need a reality check.

Does the same argument apply if you switch UK for EU and Scotland for UK?

Yes.

I always said SNats just don't do irony, or self awareness for that matter.

[Alpacaman]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-s-...

So how would an independent Scotland have coped with overestimating tax take by £550 million without the rest of the UK to bail them out from yet another cock up. I wouldn't trust them to run a bath.

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Strocky said:

https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-ou...

Thank god we've the broad shoulders of WM to take the black curse away from our haunted isle

Walter Mitty??

[Kccv23highliftcam]

r11co said:

Kccv23highliftcam said:

It is not inconceivable that the EU may be using sturgeon and Eire to do their dirty work for them.

That's a conspiracy theory/stretch of the imagination too far IMO. The EU as I said earlier is a technocratic organisation and doesn't give a hoot about Ireland's history - the issue is only arising because of their strict bureaucratic approach to things.

No I think they can certainty stir enough st up if they were, shall we say, given the right motivation....