Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[hidetheelephants]

Alpacaman said:

You do start to wonder how much longer she can cling to power. When even Wings no longer believes you, and can see it is just another attempt to placate the hard-core indy fans, you really start to think she is on her way out. Her claims that education is her number one priority are starting to look a little hollow as well. The problem for the SNP is who do they replace her with, is there a single one who stands out?

The SNP talent pool is shallower than the LibDems'.

[cb31]

Edinburger said:

Fair points, Gecko. But not insurmountable. Remember that Scotland has a share of all those things...

If that's the way it works we'll make sure you get your share of the national debt too, could work out quite profitable for rUK

[technodup]

Wee Ginger Baws is raging.

Ginger Dug said:

The statement, so long awaited, so keenly anticipated, so important to the constitutional future of Scotland, so crucial for the shape of Scottish politics for the next couple of years, was ignored by the BBC Parliament channel and wasn’t broadcast live on BBC Scotland. BBC Scotland only broke into the coverage of the snooker it was sharing with BBC2 after the speech was over. This was the first big political test for the new Scottish BBC channel, and it failed. The statement wasn’t broadcast live on BBC Scotland, BBC1, BBC2, BBC Parliament, or BBC News.

Maybe because it was the same 'big announcement about absolutely nothing' pish she's been churning out for as long as I can remember?

Keenly anticipated? Crucial? These s are more deluded than I thought.

[wc98]

technodup said:

Wee Ginger Baws is raging.

Ginger Dug said:

The statement, so long awaited, so keenly anticipated, so important to the constitutional future of Scotland, so crucial for the shape of Scottish politics for the next couple of years, was ignored by the BBC Parliament channel and wasn’t broadcast live on BBC Scotland. BBC Scotland only broke into the coverage of the snooker it was sharing with BBC2 after the speech was over. This was the first big political test for the new Scottish BBC channel, and it failed. The statement wasn’t broadcast live on BBC Scotland, BBC1, BBC2, BBC Parliament, or BBC News.

Maybe because it was the same 'big announcement about absolutely nothing' pish she's been churning out for as long as I can remember?

Keenly anticipated? Crucial? These s are more deluded than I thought.

i don't know, i am sure strocky and edinburger were waiting with bated breath

[technodup]

Where is Strocky anyway? Posted missing. He should be here praising and defending his heroine.

[Evercross]

technodup said:

Where is Strocky anyway? Posted missing. He should be here praising and defending his heroine.

I told you. He's Natalie McGarry.

Going back to the whole secessionist states and EU membership thing, it turns out there are a clearly defined set of rules that expressly precludes states that break off from existing EU members being immediately recognised as EU members themselves, and specifies they have to apply for membership like any other country and go full the through eligibility process. The rules were established way back before the Scottish indyref and Catalonia nonsense, in 2004 in fact.

The rules are known as (and you couldn't make this up) the Prodi Doctrine (named after the EU Commissioner of the time Romano Prodi). I'm waiting now for nationalists of a certain persuasion and stunted IQ to state this was another conspiracy set in motion by clairvoyant unionists to thwart Scotland's ambitions.

Anyway, time for Nicola to stop inferring once and for all that Scottish independence is a life-raft to avoid Brexit and tempting voters with that prospect. It is plainly false. "Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will" is not solved by extricating Scotland completely from any future relationship the UK establishes with the EU.

Edited by Evercross on Friday 26th April 08:50

[amusingduck]

cb31 said:

Edinburger said:

Fair points, Gecko. But not insurmountable. Remember that Scotland has a share of all those things...

If that's the way it works we'll make sure you get your share of the national debt too, could work out quite profitable for rUK

Google suggests the national debt is £2,175 billion. At about 8.2% of the UK population, that makes the Scottish share about £178.35 billion?

The EU divorce payment looks like an absolute steal by comparison

[amgmcqueen]

I can't even begin to get my head around how difficult and damaging it would be if Scotland voted for independence.

For a start you would be voting to leave the EU just as the UK is doing. On top of that you would have:

No currency,
No national health service,
No dvla/licensing
No working/pensions,
No free tuition fees,
No free prescriptions,
No passport/agency
No mail service,
No military,
Potential exclusion from NATO,
Restricted air/shipping routes,
A possible hard border with your biggest trading partner,
Possible tariffs applied by your biggest trading partner,
Potential for large corporations moving south of the border.....etc etc.

Who's going to pay for the impossible?! P.S. I absolutely adore Scotland, one of the most beautiful Countries in the world, love it!

[Alpacaman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-po...

So now Nicola thinks if Boris is PM that would be grounds for indymince 2, also some random guff about "how Scotland has been treated" would be another reason. I suspect the sun rising in the east would be grounds in her head.

[Troubleatmill]

I'm looking forward to the days that the BBC report "Today - Nicola Sturgeon has not mentioned the possibility of a referendum..."

[mcdjl]

amgmcqueen said:

I can't even begin to get my head around how difficult and damaging it would be if Scotland voted for independence.

For a start you would be voting to leave the EU just as the UK is doing. On top of that you would have:

No currency,
No national health service,
No dvla/licensing
No working/pensions,
No free tuition fees,
No free prescriptions,
No passport/agency
No mail service,
No military,
Potential exclusion from NATO,
Restricted air/shipping routes,
A possible hard border with your biggest trading partner,
Possible tariffs applied by your biggest trading partner,
Potential for large corporations moving south of the border.....etc etc.

Who's going to pay for the impossible?! P.S. I absolutely adore Scotland, one of the most beautiful Countries in the world, love it!

Wrong. Scotland would have a share in all of those things so everything would be fine. The fact that 10% of each of them would be not much use and cost more than 10% of the current cost to run is irrelevant.

[percymk4]

amgmcqueen said:

I can't even begin to get my head around how difficult and damaging it would be if Scotland voted for independence.

For a start you would be voting to leave the EU just as the UK is doing. On top of that you would have:

No currency,
No national health service,
No dvla/licensing
No working/pensions,
No free tuition fees,
No free prescriptions,
No passport/agency
No mail service,
No military,
Potential exclusion from NATO,
Restricted air/shipping routes,
A possible hard border with your biggest trading partner,
Possible tariffs applied by your biggest trading partner,
Potential for large corporations moving south of the border.....etc etc.

Who's going to pay for the impossible?! P.S. I absolutely adore Scotland, one of the most beautiful Countries in the world, love it!

You're forgetting the fact that if people "BELIEVE" strongly enough, then everything will be fine.

[Alpacaman]

http://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i330/c...

An well reasoned article from These Islands about the dangers to Scotland of both sterlingisation and adopting our own currency. Obviously there would be no way to adopt the Euro. So would anyone vote for the massive risks involved to mortgages, wages etc?


I am sure one of our resident nationalists will be along shortly to dismiss it as "yoon" propaganda, but I look forward to them explaining where it is wrong.

[Starfighter]

Planning their own currency...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-po...

[Professor Barney]

I don't understand the derision this proposal is attracting. It's all very well hijacking the saltire, getting a head start in social media campaigns, producing a wish-list and calling it a white paper to give it veneer of seriousness but this is the first proposal I've seen from the SNP that suggests they may have learned some of the lessons from the last referendum.

For what it's worth I'm an Englishman that's lived in Scotland for the majority of his life (just) and have gradually moved from a unionist position to that of wanting the UK to disband with all nations going their own independent way. What I objected to in the last referendum was the number of independence supporters simply insulting my intelligence, whether it was 'look how rich Saudi is, we should be the same', 'we're not really British, we're Scandinavian/Irish/European, actually anything except British', 'we subsidise England' or 'the white paper is the most comprehensive framework for the creation of a new nation ever.'.

I've got the utmost respect for anyone that wants independence, as long as it it true independence with all the freedoms and risks that come with it, and a new currency is certainly a risk. It is also a key tool in economic control offering the ability to influence exchange and interest rates.

If the SNP start addressing the other big issues that they've ducked so far ( the border with England, immigration controls, oil as a diminishing resource, public v private sector balance etc.) then there's no reason I wouldn't change from a 'No' to a 'Yes' next time round.

Sorry of this is a bit rambling, it's late and I've had a very busy day :-).

[Evercross]

Professor Barney said:

I don't understand the derision this proposal is attracting. It's all very well hijacking the saltire, getting a head start in social media campaigns, producing a wish-list and calling it a white paper to give it veneer of seriousness but this is the first proposal I've seen from the SNP that suggests they may have learned some of the lessons from the last referendum.

Two reasons mainly. The first is that this is an extremely unpopular idea amongst the Scottish population and is only being proposed because it goes some way towards addressing the mutually exclusive proposals the SNP set out in their 2014 White Paper that Scotland could accede to EU membership while entering a currency union with the rest of the UK. This was patently a lie and the relevant legislation was available to demonstrate it was not possible, but the leader of the party at the time chose to ignore the legislation, pretend he had his own legal advice to the contrary, and misinform the populace.

The second reason is that by the SNP's own Growth Commission report Scotland would face 'austerity max' regardless of its economic position if it follows a fast-track to its own currency because they would have had no time to build up foreign currency reserves. Once again the SNP are presenting policies that are mutually exclusive because they fight on a platform of ending austerity.

[anonymous-user]

As has been said ad infinitum, the quickest way to get Scottish Independence is to give rUK a vote on it.

[Dinoboy]

I think they've screwed themselves completely on this one, any undecided voters have just been given the biggest reason they'll ever get to vote No in any future referendum.

[Ecosseven]

Dinoboy said:

I think they've screwed themselves completely on this one, any undecided voters have just been given the biggest reason they'll ever get to vote No in any future referendum.

I'm not so sure. I'm firmly in the unionist camp but a lot of independence support will vote 'Yes' or Leave' in any future referendum regardless of the financial or social impact to gain their 'freedom' from the UK. Add to this the shambles that is Brexit and I can see a lot of swing votes going towards independence.

I can say for certain that if the country does vote for independence and it's own currency I'll be transferring my savings and investments out of the country.

[Welshbeef]

Ecosseven said:

I'm not so sure. I'm firmly in the unionist camp but a lot of independence support will vote 'Yes' or Leave' in any future referendum regardless of the financial or social impact to gain their 'freedom' from the UK. Add to this the shambles that is Brexit and I can see a lot of swing votes going towards independence.

I can say for certain that if the country does vote for independence and it's own currency I'll be transferring my savings and investments out of the country.

Surely Scottish residents can see the complexities of exiting a 40year old union and the reality is there is no negotiation the bigger partner simply states the leave rules or makes you leave with no deal and financial ruin.

Now imagine a Scottish to England hard border .... it would decimate trade

Likewise the U.K. Govt have learnt a thing or two about leaving
1. Divorce bill first
2. Agree a transition period (Withdrawal act)
3. Only then can they even consider future trade.
4. They will stand utterly unified on this

So many lessons learnt and will be replicated period


A 300 year union would be exceptionally difficult to split

They wouldn’t be “friends” how could they be the new world would be direct competitors so Your country first