Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

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SidJames

1,399 posts

196 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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mikal83 said:
Anymore outbursts from krankie?
biggrin

blinkythefish

952 posts

220 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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Dicky Knee said:
amusingduck said:
I'm surprised at the amount of pro-Indy Scots on the internet who believe that Scotland will be "fast tracked" into the EU.

Why do they think the EU is so desperate for a newly formed net recipient that meets none of the entry criteria?!
Don't be surprised. There are also alot of pro-Indy Scots on the internet blaming the Barnett Formula for sucking all the cash out of Scotland.
Fear not, these are the people who will be left to help iScotland rise like a phoenix from the ashes after everyone with a remotely useful skill has buggered off to somewhere that isn't a total basket case.......

57 Chevy

5,123 posts

198 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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Can someone remind me why the Scottish Greens support independence? Surely if they want to save the planet it's better to do it as part of a bigger entity? They are carrying extraordinary influence right now considering the scale of their support.

donutsina911

1,044 posts

147 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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percymk4 said:
https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/videos/vb.77249349...

If anyone fancies a laugh/ cry. SNP conference live now.
well, managed to make it to 3 minutes listening to that clown...

lemmingjames

6,728 posts

167 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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gruffalo said:
I am also down here in the sunny south east and every time I see a clip from parliament where the SNP are exercising their vocal chords they are not putting a good image of Scotland forward, unless of course Scotland wants to be seen as behaving like a petulant child.
Which, if the rest of the Uk was allowed to vote and this is all we see, many would be inclined to vote bye based upon their screen behaviour

bigkeeko

1,370 posts

106 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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57 Chevy said:
Can someone remind me why the Scottish Greens support independence? Surely if they want to save the planet it's better to do it as part of a bigger entity? They are carrying extraordinary influence right now considering the scale of their support.
I think it's because of the oil that that'll make us all rich if we're independent. The Greens like fossil fuels. Oh, erm, hang on.whistle

Sylvaforever

2,212 posts

61 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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donutsina911 said:
percymk4 said:
https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/videos/vb.77249349...

If anyone fancies a laugh/ cry. SNP conference live now.
well, managed to make it to 3 minutes listening to that clown...
They aren't funny at all. I wonder if the republican connections will be motivated to take things into the right own hands...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotla...

hyphen

18,964 posts

53 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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So indications are that May will say no to a referendum until after the next elections so the SNP have to get a mandate from the people.

Will be interesting if it does go down this road and how many will not vote SNP due to this.

gofasterrosssco

1,165 posts

199 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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bigkeeko said:
57 Chevy said:
Can someone remind me why the Scottish Greens support independence? Surely if they want to save the planet it's better to do it as part of a bigger entity? They are carrying extraordinary influence right now considering the scale of their support.
I think it's because of the oil that that'll make us all rich if we're independent. The Greens like fossil fuels. Oh, erm, hang on.whistle
Kinda makes it pretty obvious why the SNP refuse to allow onshore fracking in Scotland - they'd potentially loose Green SNP support and their 'Yes Majority'.. wink

Lefty

15,385 posts

165 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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Ecosseven

1,567 posts

180 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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Morning all,

There are rumours that the SNP will try and gain membership of EFTA rather than membership of the EU in order to try and win back support from pro-Brexit SNP supporters. Seems crazy to me that they call for a referendum on the basis that Scotland is being ‘dragged out of the EU against its will’ and then don’t want to join or attempt to join the EU if they achieve independence

Anyway I have a few question on EFTA membership.

My understanding is that Scotland would still need its own currency, lender of last resort, and central bank. Is this correct?
Do the members of EFTA have to comply with most or all of the EU laws?
Do EFTA members still have to pay the same as EU members for access to the single market?
Are there any other restrictions to gaining EFTA membership similar to the 3% deficit limit set for entry into the EU?

I also understand that EFTA members have to allow free movement of people.

If all of the above correct what are the advantages of EFTA over EU membership other than retaining your own currency?

I’m trying not to think about the next 2 years of bile, bitterness and division. It’s actually got to the stage now that if Sturgeon, Salmond, or Robertson are on the TV or radio I have to change channels. God only knows what other countries must make of it all.



Sway

17,565 posts

157 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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Ecosseven said:
Morning all,

There are rumours that the SNP will try and gain membership of EFTA rather than membership of the EU in order to try and win back support from pro-Brexit SNP supporters. Seems crazy to me that they call for a referendum on the basis that Scotland is being ‘dragged out of the EU against its will’ and then don’t want to join or attempt to join the EU if they achieve independence

Anyway I have a few question on EFTA membership.

My understanding is that Scotland would still need its own currency, lender of last resort, and central bank. Is this correct?
Do the members of EFTA have to comply with most or all of the EU laws?
Do EFTA members still have to pay the same as EU members for access to the single market?
Are there any other restrictions to gaining EFTA membership similar to the 3% deficit limit set for entry into the EU?

I also understand that EFTA members have to allow free movement of people.

If all of the above correct what are the advantages of EFTA over EU membership other than retaining your own currency?

I’m trying not to think about the next 2 years of bile, bitterness and division. It’s actually got to the stage now that if Sturgeon, Salmond, or Robertson are on the TV or radio I have to change channels. God only knows what other countries must make of it all.
EFTA is not a political union, and frankly your questions whilst valid, open up a huge can of worms in terms of the answers! Only this morning on another thread I had to admit a fairly fundamental error in my understanding, not having read up on it for a good few months.

Briefly:

All the EFTA members are either members of the EEA, or in the case of Switzerland a broadly similar agreement.

Yes, you need to be a truly independent nation, so currency, lender of last resort, etc.

There is a level of compliance, however the EU mostly ratifies higher body legislation into it's own, such as ISO and WTO. The EU has one seat at those bodies, the EFTA nations have a seat each.

The payments per capita are calculated on a case by case basis. Difficult to tell.

r11co

6,244 posts

193 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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Ecosseven said:
There are rumours that the SNP will try and gain membership of EFTA rather than membership of the EU in order to try and win back support from pro-Brexit SNP supporters. Seems crazy to me that they call for a referendum on the basis that Scotland is being ‘dragged out of the EU against its will’ and then don’t want to join or attempt to join the EU if they achieve independence.
Which is why Sturgeon peddled the speculation that the UK is going for a 'hard' zero deal with the EU while she wants full membership. Keeping the choice fuzzy was essential to her justification for the call for indyref2.

If it turns out that the UK secure something along the lines of EFTA-with-benefits then Sturgeon would look mighty stupid (doesn't she anyway) if she committed to just EFTA membership.

Expect, when the UK Brexit deal is known, for Sturgeon to 'do a Salmond' and propose that Scotland will pursue something more, and will get it,.... just because,... like.

In other words gamble on the SNP double-or-quits.

Edited by r11co on Friday 17th March 12:05

dromong

689 posts

183 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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We've already seen the outcome of a close referendum result. I don't think enough has changed to warrant another, not to give a more diverse result, and the bitterness will be larger and last longer this time, whether it goes the other way - and roughly half of the country is dragged out of the UK against it's will because roughly half of the country wanted to leave due to being dragged out of the EU against it's will, by a government who chooses only to listen to half of it's citizens - or if it's the same, roughly half of the country will scream Tory and disown the other half having lost twice.
What's more, we have (rather recently) seen the flaws of referendums illustrated oh so vividly. Division, binary options, irreversible decision, etc.

Yet the SNP have an insatiable desire to roll the dice on yet another, forget all the problems that need resolved in Scotland, lets just hammer Indyref2 relentlessly. Talk about one track minds FFS.

I'm a Scot and I am sick to the back teeth of the SNP, Please don't tar us all with the same brush folks, its really unfair.

Murph7355

28,451 posts

219 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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hyphen said:
So indications are that May will say no to a referendum until after the next elections so the SNP have to get a mandate from the people.

Will be interesting if it does go down this road and how many will not vote SNP due to this.
This is exactly what I would do if I were her (mentioned it earlier in this thread I think - I'll send TM a bill smile), and would stipulate that the SNP need a majority in those elections. And I'd make that clear now so that all other parties can start to get their st together.

I would then make sure that any agreement to hold one is legally a "once in a generation" vote. So put in place something that blocked any new referendum for 30-40yrs.

This move either kills it dead, or it means the Scots leave. Which is exactly the decision that is needed either way.

FN2TypeR

7,091 posts

56 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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Murph7355 said:
This is exactly what I would do if I were her (mentioned it earlier in this thread I think - I'll send TM a bill smile), and would stipulate that the SNP need a majority in those elections. And I'd make that clear now so that all other parties can start to get their st together.

I would then make sure that any agreement to hold one is legally a "once in a generation" vote. So put in place something that blocked any new referendum for 30-40yrs.

This move either kills it dead, or it means the Scots leave. Which is exactly the decision that is needed either way.
Why would they need a majority? They aren't the only party that are proponents of independence - the greens support it too and they do well enough at Holyrood, in comparison to their south of the border counterparts anyway.

Tam_Mullen

2,016 posts

135 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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danllama said:
Would it be possible to simply dissolve Scotland into England?

That seems like two birds with one stone to me.
I'm opposed to another referendum, and would be voting no, but you can fk off with this idea hehe

r11co

6,244 posts

193 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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FN2TypeR said:
Why would they need a majority?
Because that is the definition of a mandate. Currently the SNP have no mandate, so Sturgeon, Mike Russel and Angus Robertson are bullstting when they say the have a 'cast-iron' one, regardless of their 'material change' gerrymandering.


FN2TypeR said:
They aren't the only party that are proponents of independence - the greens support it too and they do well enough at Holyrood, in comparison to their south of the border counterparts anyway.
Two words - citizens initiative. The Greens said in their manifesto that they would not support a second indyref unless it could be shown to be the will of the people, and they specified that a petition with a million signatures would be their measure of this. That hasn't happened so there still isn't a mandate for a second inyref with the support of both the SNP and Greens combined.

If the Greens support a s.30 vote in the Scottish Parliament without said petition then they have broken a manifesto pledge and contradicted the will of their voters (even the Westminster leading party cannot be accused of breaking manifesto pledges these days wink ).

I expect the Greens to bend over to the will of the SNP, and to be rightly castigated for it.

Edited by r11co on Friday 17th March 12:41

jsf

21,768 posts

199 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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The next time a referendum is granted, it should be stipulated that if Scotland decides to stay in the union, the Scottish Parliament is dissolved and rule returns to Westminster.

If they decide to leave the union, the Bank of England should stipulate they will not be able to use the GBP as a currency of last resort. It isn't their choice what currency they choose, it is the UK governments choice who can use it.

Devolution has been a cancer, you give an inch and they want more, you give another inch and they want more. All this is doing is driving up costs and making any changes more cumbersome, which is not good for long term stability of growth.

The Flying Ox

400 posts

136 months

Friday 17th March 2017
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FN2TypeR said:
Why would they need a majority? They aren't the only party that are proponents of independence - the greens support it too and they do well enough at Holyrood, in comparison to their south of the border counterparts anyway.
The problem with that is it ties independence in with other political beliefs, like the riders that go on bills in the US.

I propose a simple addition to the ballot paper, seeing as some people might vote SNP but not want a referendum and so their votes would be counted as "for" unfairly, just as some folks might vote Labour but want a referendum and their votes would be counted as "against" unfairly.

Have a 3rd box on the ballot: "Do you support the idea of a second referendum on Scotland's independence from the United Kingdom?"

Everyone can vote for whichever party they want without having to also weigh any manifesto promises for referendums or otherwise, and there'd be a definitive answer on whether the appetite is there.
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