Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Can't blame the Scots for wanting to escape the consequences of the Norman conquest: descendants of the invaders own about 30-40% of England and Scotland, about 1% of the population. This sort of feudal land nonsense (hidden ownership etc), along with the English middle class that spends its time mimicking the degenerate aristocracy, means England is slowly on its way to being sidelined. You can understand Scotland wanting to become a normal nation away from the increasingly febrile England, living on past glories. Lived in England for twenty years and have many fine English people as friends and family, but boy, the lack of understanding of how the world views the country is a source of great humour. Had a recent one where a dear friend, intended as a compliment, said "don't worry, think of you as English now". He meant it as the highest compliment and it was a funny moment. Cheers, fella, it's not that great an honour. Read your history...
B210bandit said:
Can't blame the Scots for wanting to escape the consequences of the Norman conquest: descendants of the invaders own about 30-40% of England and Scotland, about 1% of the population. This sort of feudal land nonsense (hidden ownership etc), along with the English middle class that spends its time mimicking the degenerate aristocracy, means England is slowly on its way to being sidelined. You can understand Scotland wanting to become a normal nation away from the increasingly febrile England, living on past glories. Lived in England for twenty years and have many fine English people as friends and family, but boy, the lack of understanding of how the world views the country is a source of great humour. Had a recent one where a dear friend, intended as a compliment, said "don't worry, think of you as English now". He meant it as the highest compliment and it was a funny moment. Cheers, fella, it's not that great an honour. Read your history...
Put the lid back on the glue.B210bandit said:
Can't blame the Scots for wanting to escape the consequences of the Norman conquest: descendants of the invaders own about 30-40% of England and Scotland, about 1% of the population. This sort of feudal land nonsense (hidden ownership etc), along with the English middle class that spends its time mimicking the degenerate aristocracy, means England is slowly on its way to being sidelined. You can understand Scotland wanting to become a normal nation away from the increasingly febrile England, living on past glories. Lived in England for twenty years and have many fine English people as friends and family, but boy, the lack of understanding of how the world views the country is a source of great humour. Had a recent one where a dear friend, intended as a compliment, said "don't worry, think of you as English now". He meant it as the highest compliment and it was a funny moment. Cheers, fella, it's not that great an honour. Read your history...
One of the Nationalists heroes, Robert the Bruce, was from Norman stock...B210bandit said:
Can't blame the Scots for wanting to escape the consequences of the Norman conquest: descendants of the invaders own about 30-40% of England and Scotland, about 1% of the population. This sort of feudal land nonsense (hidden ownership etc),<snip>
No need for independence, it's a devolved matter. The SNP have had a decade to address land reform; they've tinkered at the edges, brought in some reforms concerning community buy-out but totally bottled it as far as forcing public disclosure of beneficial ownership or any of the more radical measures outlined by Wightman etc for increasing diversity of ownership. If they cannot bring themselves to reform land ownership when it's in their power to do so independence will not change a thing.
Garvin said:
50 years! You are Jacob Rees-Mogg AICMFP 
Nobody knows - true but there are a few fundamentals to consider. Scotland has an unhealthy population which creates a big drain on resources and a reduction in revenue, a double whammy.
To retain your standard of living revenue will need to be substantially increased and this can only come from taxation. Raising both personal and commercial taxes risks a brain drain in both people and industry which could well put Scotland in a damaging downward spiral. Remember, the Northern Powerhouse is just down the road!
If taxation is not increased, public services will take a huge hit. This, in itself, risks the same brain drain as above.
Note also that in any brain drain it is the brightest and wealthiest that will move which just exacerbates the problem further.
In summary, Scotland can not afford independence, the brightest in society know it as do the politicians and only the stupid nats can’t see it and will end up the worst off in the new, independent Scotland. Riots? I think Scotland would do well just to suffer the odd riot, and blaming ‘Wastemonster’ won’t save you.
Without something akin to North Sea Oil an independent Scotland is fuber’d. End of.
That is why it’s never going to happen and Sturgeon must know it. She’s just stringing you all along to retain power - you are being taken for idiots and, quite frankly, Scotland has brought it on itself.
You're correct we're just to wee and to stupid to do anything. All these countries the same size as ours, all these countries gaining independence in the last few decades but only we couldn't do it.Nobody knows - true but there are a few fundamentals to consider. Scotland has an unhealthy population which creates a big drain on resources and a reduction in revenue, a double whammy.
To retain your standard of living revenue will need to be substantially increased and this can only come from taxation. Raising both personal and commercial taxes risks a brain drain in both people and industry which could well put Scotland in a damaging downward spiral. Remember, the Northern Powerhouse is just down the road!
If taxation is not increased, public services will take a huge hit. This, in itself, risks the same brain drain as above.
Note also that in any brain drain it is the brightest and wealthiest that will move which just exacerbates the problem further.
In summary, Scotland can not afford independence, the brightest in society know it as do the politicians and only the stupid nats can’t see it and will end up the worst off in the new, independent Scotland. Riots? I think Scotland would do well just to suffer the odd riot, and blaming ‘Wastemonster’ won’t save you.
Without something akin to North Sea Oil an independent Scotland is fuber’d. End of.
That is why it’s never going to happen and Sturgeon must know it. She’s just stringing you all along to retain power - you are being taken for idiots and, quite frankly, Scotland has brought it on itself.
Like Brexit, nobody has a f
king clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible. If life was difficult for a few years i'd take that to be able to be governed by a government we voted, for our head of state not to be an unelected billionaire family, to join the EU. Similar reasons some voted for brexit TBH, only they can't see the irony of voting for brexit "to take back control" but happy to see Scotland shackled to Westminster.
sbarclay62 said:
Like Brexit, nobody has a fking clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible.
I think anyone with half a brain can compare and contrast the two situations and conclude they have very little in common.king clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible. So your flippant 'could be great, could be s
t' is pretty retarded imo.sbarclay62 said:
You're correct we're just to wee and to stupid to do anything. All these countries the same size as ours, all these countries gaining independence in the last few decades but only we couldn't do it.
Like Brexit, nobody has a fking clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible.
If life was difficult for a few years i'd take that to be able to be governed by a government we voted, for our head of state not to be an unelected billionaire family, to join the EU. Similar reasons some voted for brexit TBH, only they can't see the irony of voting for brexit "to take back control" but happy to see Scotland shackled to Westminster.
Too wee and too stupid? Yes, quite possibly.Like Brexit, nobody has a f
king clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible. If life was difficult for a few years i'd take that to be able to be governed by a government we voted, for our head of state not to be an unelected billionaire family, to join the EU. Similar reasons some voted for brexit TBH, only they can't see the irony of voting for brexit "to take back control" but happy to see Scotland shackled to Westminster.
Scotland can survive as an independent country, of course it can but it cannot do that and enjoy its current level of ‘prosperity’. I have admiration for those who will accept hardship in order to achieve the goals you set out as long as you, and everyone else in Scotland, understand the possible level of hardship you risk and all are as accepting as you.
The real irony with Brexit is that UK wants to be free. Scotland wants to pretend to be free but wants to shackle itself back to the EU. Who has the biggest wish for true independence and freedom I wonder?
There is some irony twixt Brexit and Scottish independence but there is one absolute fundamental difference. Brexit can be afforded by UK and the affect, according to all financial projections, will be mildly uncomfortable but by no means disastrous. An independent Scotland would face an uncomfortable future on a whole different level.
As I said in a previous post, get ready to be really, really poor but ‘free’.
technodup said:
think anyone with half a brain can compare and contrast the two situations and conclude they have very little in common.
So your flippant 'could be great, could be st' is pretty retarded imo.
Brexiteers - "we want to take back full control"So your flippant 'could be great, could be s
t' is pretty retarded imo.Scots Yes voters - "We want to take back full control"
Remainers - "Brexit will be a disaster"
No voters - "Independence will be a disaster"
Don't like the word retarded, tad derogatory for my liking and best left to school kids. However, what is "retarded" about it? I voted remain, I want to remain in the EU and hope for a future Scottish Republic to be a member of the EU however I'm happy to sit on the fence with Brexit as we don't have a f
king clue how its going to pan out - no one does. Just as no-one knows how an Independant Scotland will be in the future.Edinburger said:
Mrr T said:
Edinburger said:
Yes, I do understand that.
Tell me then; according to GERS Scotland has a deficit of £12.6bn, Wales has a deficit of £13.7bn. Yet the UK's deficit is £23.5bn. Really?
What's confusing you?Tell me then; according to GERS Scotland has a deficit of £12.6bn, Wales has a deficit of £13.7bn. Yet the UK's deficit is £23.5bn. Really?
Get it now?
sbarclay62 said:
Don't like the word retarded, tad derogatory for my liking and best left to school kids. However, what is "retarded" about it?
Currency, for a start?https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i330/...
technodup said:
sbarclay62 said:
Like Brexit, nobody has a fking clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible.
I think anyone with half a brain can compare and contrast the two situations and conclude they have very little in common.king clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible. So your flippant 'could be great, could be s
t' is pretty retarded imo.king clue simply isn't good enough. There are clues everywhere. Aspirations too. Connect the dots.voyds9 said:
OK baby steps.
Scotland spend more than they earn, deficit £12.6B
Wales spends more than it earns, deficit £13.7B
Total deficit £26.3B
England can run a country profitably and makes a profit of £3.1B
UK deficit £26.3B -£3.1B. Total deficit £23.5B
Or with 8% of the population Scotland is responsible for 48% of the UK debt
If thats the case then surely there is absolutely no case for the British establishment to fight tooth and nail for Scotland to remain part of the UK? If all we are good for is running the rest of the UK to a massive debt surely they would just cut us free? After all other than debt we bring nothing to the party? Scotland spend more than they earn, deficit £12.6B
Wales spends more than it earns, deficit £13.7B
Total deficit £26.3B
England can run a country profitably and makes a profit of £3.1B
UK deficit £26.3B -£3.1B. Total deficit £23.5B
Or with 8% of the population Scotland is responsible for 48% of the UK debt
sbarclay62 said:
If thats the case then surely there is absolutely no case for the British establishment to fight tooth and nail for Scotland to remain part of the UK? If all we are good for is running the rest of the UK to a massive debt surely they would just cut us free? After all other than debt we bring nothing to the party?
Why would you assume that the whole thing is about money? As an Englishman I do not care one jot that other parts of the nation (UK) currently take more than they contribute. That's what being a nation is about (in part). There have been times when Birmingham and Glasgow were the major contributors, Liverpool, Manchester, Aberdeen, Bristol have all played their part over the years. The coal fields of the Welsh valleys too.It's not about the money. It's about (dare I say it) family. OK, we might take chunks out of each other from time to time, but the ties of blood and history far outweighs notions of short term political expediency and economic utility.
sbarclay62 said:
You're correct we're just to wee and to stupid to do anything. All these countries the same size as ours, all these countries gaining independence in the last few decades but only we couldn't do it.
Utter strawman argument. No one has said that Scotland *can't*. Just that it's going to be bloody expensive with a massive impact to finances and that they're going to be worse off. sbarclay62 said:
Like Brexit, nobody has a fking clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible.
Long term no. Short term yes. Well except that thanks to the omnishambles in Westminster we don't have a fking clue how an Independant Scotland would pan out. Could be great - could be terrible. king clue what is actually going to happen so even short term no one knows with Brexit. sbarclay62 said:
If life was difficult for a few years i'd take that to be able to be governed by a government we voted, for our head of state not to be an unelected billionaire family, to join the EU. Similar reasons some voted for brexit TBH, only they can't see the irony of voting for brexit "to take back control" but happy to see Scotland shackled to Westminster.
Scotland already has disproportionate representation in Westminster. It receives more funding per person than England and large portions of control have been devolved yet the SNP haven't taken over many of those devolved powers.Not to mention the SNP could hold more power if instead of permanently banging the evil tories and independence drum while sabre rattling over Brexit they bargained with the Conservatives. At the moment the DUP has disproportionate power for their size. The SNP *could* be in a similar position. "We'll support your Brexit bill for a guaranteed second referendum", "We'll support your Brexit bill for 1B extra spend in Scotland", "We'll support your Brexit bill on the agreement we'll get an agreement to keep the pound for a certain time if we leave" etc etc.
The trouble is that they don't *want* to. Being able to blame everything on "Westmonster" and claim they're powerless works far more in their favour than doing anything.
DocJock said:
B210bandit said:
Can't blame the Scots for wanting to escape the consequences of the Norman conquest: descendants of the invaders own about 30-40% of England and Scotland, about 1% of the population. This sort of feudal land nonsense (hidden ownership etc), along with the English middle class that spends its time mimicking the degenerate aristocracy, means England is slowly on its way to being sidelined. You can understand Scotland wanting to become a normal nation away from the increasingly febrile England, living on past glories. Lived in England for twenty years and have many fine English people as friends and family, but boy, the lack of understanding of how the world views the country is a source of great humour. Had a recent one where a dear friend, intended as a compliment, said "don't worry, think of you as English now". He meant it as the highest compliment and it was a funny moment. Cheers, fella, it's not that great an honour. Read your history...
One of the Nationalists heroes, Robert the Bruce, was from Norman stock...sbarclay62 said:
technodup said:
think anyone with half a brain can compare and contrast the two situations and conclude they have very little in common.
So your flippant 'could be great, could be st' is pretty retarded imo.
Brexiteers - "we want to take back full control"So your flippant 'could be great, could be s
t' is pretty retarded imo.Scots Yes voters - "We want to take back full control"
Remainers - "Brexit will be a disaster"
No voters - "Independence will be a disaster"
Don't like the word retarded, tad derogatory for my liking and best left to school kids. However, what is "retarded" about it? I voted remain, I want to remain in the EU and hope for a future Scottish Republic to be a member of the EU however I'm happy to sit on the fence with Brexit as we don't have a f
king clue how its going to pan out - no one does. Just as no-one knows how an Independant Scotland will be in the future.sbarclay62 said:
I voted remain, I want to remain in the EU and hope for a future Scottish Republic to be a member of the EU
A remainer? Fair enough. (I'll leave the issue of 'independence' within the EU for now).sbarclay62 said:
however I'm happy to sit on the fence with Brexit as we don't have a fking clue how its going to pan out - no one does.
Ah, now you're on the fence, so maybe not a remainer?king clue how its going to pan out - no one does. sbarclay62 said:
Just as no-one knows how an Independant Scotland will be in the future.
But your first post above says you're pro independence, so you seemed sure enough two sentences ago?So you're 'on the fence' because you're not sure about Brexit (even though you were sure when you chose to vote), yet you're not on the fence when the much more suspect Scottish independence is the question.
sbarclay62 said:
Don't like the word retarded, tad derogatory for my liking and best left to school kids. However, what is "retarded" about it?
You might not like it, but it's entirely appropriate.sbarclay62 said:
If thats the case then surely there is absolutely no case for the British establishment to fight tooth and nail for Scotland to remain part of the UK? If all we are good for is running the rest of the UK to a massive debt surely they would just cut us free? After all other than debt we bring nothing to the party?
All things being equal then, yes, getting shot of Scotland would be a financial benefit to the rUK. However, for me, Scotland would be plunged into a complete and utter financial disaster zone and there is no way it could qualify for EU membership in order to ‘suckle at its teat’ to be saved from its own folly.What then? Probably a rerun of the act of union in order for rUK to save Scotland as it had to before but not after further upset and division and hatred etc., etc.
Garvin said:
sbarclay62 said:
If thats the case then surely there is absolutely no case for the British establishment to fight tooth and nail for Scotland to remain part of the UK? If all we are good for is running the rest of the UK to a massive debt surely they would just cut us free? After all other than debt we bring nothing to the party?
All things being equal then, yes, getting shot of Scotland would be a financial benefit to the rUK. However, for me, Scotland would be plunged into a complete and utter financial disaster zone and there is no way it could qualify for EU membership in order to ‘suckle at its teat’ to be saved from its own folly.What then? Probably a rerun of the act of union in order for rUK to save Scotland as it had to before but not after further upset and division and hatred etc., etc.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff