Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Edinburger said:
So, if Scotland gain independence - what impact do you think rUK would endure?
I think rUK would have to ‘endure’ a whole raft of Scots and industry moving south to the readily accessible Northern Powerhouse thereby increasing rUK GDP and weakening Scotland’s further.A major impact could possibly be losing the facilities at Faslane but it would all be transferred, if necessary, south - more jobs in rUK, less in IScotland.
Depending on tariffs etc. then rUK may have to endure the price of fine Scottish single malt whisky increasing.
Edinburger said:
So, if Scotland gain independence - what impact do you think rUK would endure?
I don’t think “endure” is quite the right word to describe the impacts of separation I think “benefit” would be a better word
From the public purse where Scotland takes more than it gives to numerous businesses moving south
Faslane and other UK military bases would move south with the military/civil and support jobs going
Over 25 thousand people are employed in Scotland in whole UK civil service jobs .. I’d imagine a very significant number would be relocated south
Considering also that many of these jobs will be on the higher end of the scale the knock on into local economies will have a high impact
So I can see the northern powerhouse benefitting and probably the south west at Scotland’s expense
andymadmak said:
sbarclay62 said:
If thats the case then surely there is absolutely no case for the British establishment to fight tooth and nail for Scotland to remain part of the UK? If all we are good for is running the rest of the UK to a massive debt surely they would just cut us free? After all other than debt we bring nothing to the party? 
Why would you assume that the whole thing is about money? As an Englishman I do not care one jot that other parts of the nation (UK) currently take more than they contribute. That's what being a nation is about (in part). There have been times when Birmingham and Glasgow were the major contributors, Liverpool, Manchester, Aberdeen, Bristol have all played their part over the years. The coal fields of the Welsh valleys too.It's not about the money. It's about (dare I say it) family. OK, we might take chunks out of each other from time to time, but the ties of blood and history far outweighs notions of short term political expediency and economic utility.
I find it odd that Scots focused on independence don't feel the same way.
Paul Dishman said:
Garvin said:
What then? Probably a rerun of the act of union in order for rUK to save Scotland as it had to before but not after further upset and division and hatred etc., etc.
Not a chance. Why would English taxpayers want to spend a penny piece in order to bail out Scotland again?Garvin said:
Edinburger said:
So, if Scotland gain independence - what impact do you think rUK would endure?
I think rUK would have to ‘endure’ a whole raft of Scots and industry moving south to the readily accessible Northern Powerhouse thereby increasing rUK GDP and weakening Scotland’s further.A major impact could possibly be losing the facilities at Faslane but it would all be transferred, if necessary, south - more jobs in rUK, less in IScotland.
Depending on tariffs etc. then rUK may have to endure the price of fine Scottish single malt whisky increasing.
Movement of people and businesses - both ways - is probably inevitable. How much and how long would it take to move the facilities at Faslane? And where to? Interesting point.
Paul Dishman said:
Garvin said:
What then? Probably a rerun of the act of union in order for rUK to save Scotland as it had to before but not after further upset and division and hatred etc., etc.
Not a chance. Why would English taxpayers want to spend a penny piece in order to bail out Scotland again?"English taxpayers"?
Another condescending point.
You do realise there are taxpayers from Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland too?
Earthdweller said:
Edinburger said:
So, if Scotland gain independence - what impact do you think rUK would endure?
I don’t think “endure” is quite the right word to describe the impacts of separation I think “benefit” would be a better word
From the public purse where Scotland takes more than it gives to numerous businesses moving south
Faslane and other UK military bases would move south with the military/civil and support jobs going
Over 25 thousand people are employed in Scotland in whole UK civil service jobs .. I’d imagine a very significant number would be relocated south
Considering also that many of these jobs will be on the higher end of the scale the knock on into local economies will have a high impact
So I can see the northern powerhouse benefitting and probably the south west at Scotland’s expense
ks. How many jobs and businesses would relocate to Scotland? Civil service is, I believe, spread throughout the UK so a new structure would be required for iScotland and rUK.
How many small countries have gained independence and failed miserably?
AstonZagato said:
andymadmak said:
sbarclay62 said:
If thats the case then surely there is absolutely no case for the British establishment to fight tooth and nail for Scotland to remain part of the UK? If all we are good for is running the rest of the UK to a massive debt surely they would just cut us free? After all other than debt we bring nothing to the party?
Why would you assume that the whole thing is about money? As an Englishman I do not care one jot that other parts of the nation (UK) currently take more than they contribute. That's what being a nation is about (in part). There have been times when Birmingham and Glasgow were the major contributors, Liverpool, Manchester, Aberdeen, Bristol have all played their part over the years. The coal fields of the Welsh valleys too.It's not about the money. It's about (dare I say it) family. OK, we might take chunks out of each other from time to time, but the ties of blood and history far outweighs notions of short term political expediency and economic utility.
I find it odd that Scots focused on independence don't feel the same way.
Regardless of anyone's political opinion, it would be incredibly sad if the UK separated. But I think it is inevitable. The resentment to the island of Ireland caused by Brexit is a prime example. I think it is inevitable that Ireland will be reunited probably within our lifetimes. Lots of people in Scotland look at the post-Brexit economic forecasts and see independence as a way out.
And you know what - yes, we are all British but the emotional attachment to being Scottish / English / Welsh is more precious to most people.
Garvin said:
Depending on tariffs etc. then rUK may have to endure the price of fine Scottish single malt whisky increasing.
Unlikely, after all tarrifs would need to be the same for all 3rd countries and the USA seem to be able to sell into the UK market at a competetive price. Incidentally one side effect of the SNP minimum alcohol price is that I am buying less Scotch whisky. The price floor means I can try Irish or Kentucky whiskeys at the same price as the local product. Talking blends obviously as single malts aren't affected by the cap (unless it gets increased when reviewed).
andymadmak said:
Why would you assume that the whole thing is about money? As an Englishman I do not care one jot that other parts of the nation (UK) currently take more than they contribute. That's what being a nation is about (in part). There have been times when Birmingham and Glasgow were the major contributors, Liverpool, Manchester, Aberdeen, Bristol have all played their part over the years. The coal fields of the Welsh valleys too.
It's not about the money. It's about (dare I say it) family. OK, we might take chunks out of each other from time to time, but the ties of blood and history far outweighs notions of short term political expediency and economic utility.
Because pretty much the entire better together campaign was based around money and how poor we would be and how much we'd lose?It's not about the money. It's about (dare I say it) family. OK, we might take chunks out of each other from time to time, but the ties of blood and history far outweighs notions of short term political expediency and economic utility.
"There will be redundancies" - then RBS, Widows, Tesco's, Standard Life all made redundancies anyway
"Vote no to protect your pension" - then this week a tory think tank wants to increase the pension age anyway
"Scotland can't afford its own NHS" - Yet NHS Scotland has been outperforming NHS England
There are emotional ties to being part of the union for some I guess but not really for me. I see the U.K = England and England = U.K. Maybe if England had a devolve parliament and a seperate anthem etc then I'd feel different.
For all there are emotional reasons off staying part you have similar emotional reasons to leave. A chance to be a sovereign country and sit at the world stage, a chance to be governed by a government we voted for (Scottish votes at UK General elections are pretty much completely irrelevant, they make no different to the outcome), a chance to for a Head of State to be elected and not inherited, a chance of a proper socialist government and not some new labour pish, a chance for us not having to give Westminster 5% of GDP towards the military so we can be America's b
h, a chance for us not to consider spending £50b on trident renewal, a chance to be be more international and rid ourselves of a growing right wing (tory mp's) and far right wing (edl, britain first etc).Just some of the reasons. I know everyone thinks anyone that wants Scotland to be an independent country w
ks over a portrait of William Wallace while talking about hating the English flying saltires in every room but you couldn't be further from the truth. For those that voted brexit and want a united UK - what's your opinion on Northern Ireland? I find it funny listening to LBC etc you have all these fine upstanding proud Brits but they'd either a) happy to risk Ireland as an island return to chaos but putting up borders between the Republic and the north or b) happily just give N.I up completely...
Edited by sbarclay62 on Friday 23 August 09:35
Edinburger said:
While GERS is interesting it is not indicative of how an independent Scotland would perform.
I always find this kind of statement interesting as it alludes to some transformational change in Scotland's fiscal performance once it becomes independent; the difficulty is that having followed the debate closely since before the referendum, not once have I heard an SNP politician/supporter articulate in any detail the changes that would bring about this massive turnaround. They tend to talk in generalities about having access to all the "levers of power" but never specify what they mean. Are they suggesting a low tax/low spend economy? I don't think so. I genuinely would love to know.My main gripe with independence now, is the fact that the SNP have had 5 years to draw up a new white paper detailing policies on things like currency; EU membership; revenue forecasts; proposed trade plans and many other stumbling blocks. As well as this they've had the chance to try and shine, and show how Scotland can out perform our neighbours.
However, as far as I can see, nothing has been achieved, at all, in any way. There is no plan, not even a rough outline- only independence for it's own sake.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, and would love to hear the reasons why there appears to have been ZERO progress or clarification on any of the big issues that appeared (and were lied about) in the last referendum. Perhaps someone could clarify, and outline the current proposals?
However, as far as I can see, nothing has been achieved, at all, in any way. There is no plan, not even a rough outline- only independence for it's own sake.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, and would love to hear the reasons why there appears to have been ZERO progress or clarification on any of the big issues that appeared (and were lied about) in the last referendum. Perhaps someone could clarify, and outline the current proposals?
Edinburger said:
That's quite condescending. You think Scotland's only meaningful export is whisky?
Movement of people and businesses - both ways - is probably inevitable. How much and how long would it take to move the facilities at Faslane? And where to? Interesting point.
You are rather touchy. What is condescending about Scotland’s fine single malts, they are a significant export for Scotland into rUK as well as ROW? What other exports are there then? - Edinburgh Woollen Mill shops (for the over 80’s) don’t count as their collapse would be nothing to be ‘endured’ by rUK, rather celebrated methinks Movement of people and businesses - both ways - is probably inevitable. How much and how long would it take to move the facilities at Faslane? And where to? Interesting point.
sbarclay62 said:
andymadmak said:
Why would you assume that the whole thing is about money? As an Englishman I do not care one jot that other parts of the nation (UK) currently take more than they contribute. That's what being a nation is about (in part). There have been times when Birmingham and Glasgow were the major contributors, Liverpool, Manchester, Aberdeen, Bristol have all played their part over the years. The coal fields of the Welsh valleys too.
It's not about the money. It's about (dare I say it) family. OK, we might take chunks out of each other from time to time, but the ties of blood and history far outweighs notions of short term political expediency and economic utility.
Because pretty much the entire better together campaign was based around money and how poor we would be and how much we'd lose?It's not about the money. It's about (dare I say it) family. OK, we might take chunks out of each other from time to time, but the ties of blood and history far outweighs notions of short term political expediency and economic utility.
"There will be redundancies" - then RBS, Widows, Tesco's, Standard Life all made redundancies anyway
"Vote no to protect your pension" - then this week a tory think tank wants to increase the pension age anyway
"Scotland can't afford its own NHS" - Yet NHS Scotland has been outperforming NHS England
There are emotional ties to being part of the union for some I guess but not really for me. I see the U.K = England and England = U.K. Maybe if England had a devolve parliament and a seperate anthem etc then I'd feel different.
For all there are emotional reasons off staying part you have similar emotional reasons to leave. A chance to be a sovereign country and sit at the world stage, a chance to be governed by a government we voted for (Scottish votes at UK General elections are pretty much completely irrelevant, they make no different to the outcome), a chance to for a Head of State to be elected and not inherited, a chance of a proper socialist government and not some new labour pish, a chance for us not having to give Westminster 5% of GDP towards the military so we can be America's b
h, a chance for us not to consider spending £50b on trident renewal, a chance to be be more international and rid ourselves of a growing right wing (tory mp's) and far right wing (edl, britain first etc).Just some of the reasons. I know everyone thinks anyone that wants Scotland to be an independent country w
ks over a portrait of William Wallace while talking about hating the English flying saltires in every room but you couldn't be further from the truth. For those that voted brexit and want a united UK - what's your opinion on Northern Ireland? I find it funny listening to LBC etc you have all these fine upstanding proud Brits but they'd either a) happy to risk Ireland as an island return to chaos but putting up borders between the Republic and the north or b) happily just give N.I up completely...
Edited by sbarclay62 on Friday 23 August 09:35
I don't want to derail this into a Brexit thread, but the problem is that a great many English people just do not understand Northern Ireland. And have little interest in doing so. Many people in South England voted for Brexit because of immigration concerns yet here we are with potentially a 310 mile open land border between the EU and UK.
There's a variety of options which either open us up to an open door for immigration or political and social chaos on the island of Ireland. Sadly, a huge proportion of the GB population do not care about this.
So Ireland reunited. Scotland goes independent and leaves. Leaving England and Wales. Yet some posters here think they will be a big mighty nation.
irc said:
Garvin said:
Depending on tariffs etc. then rUK may have to endure the price of fine Scottish single malt whisky increasing.
Unlikely, after all tarrifs would need to be the same for all 3rd countries and the USA seem to be able to sell into the UK market at a competetive price. Incidentally one side effect of the SNP minimum alcohol price is that I am buying less Scotch whisky. The price floor means I can try Irish or Kentucky whiskeys at the same price as the local product. Talking blends obviously as single malts aren't affected by the cap (unless it gets increased when reviewed).
tim0409 said:
Edinburger said:
While GERS is interesting it is not indicative of how an independent Scotland would perform.
I always find this kind of statement interesting as it alludes to some transformational change in Scotland's fiscal performance once it becomes independent; the difficulty is that having followed the debate closely since before the referendum, not once have I heard an SNP politician/supporter articulate in any detail the changes that would bring about this massive turnaround. They tend to talk in generalities about having access to all the "levers of power" but never specify what they mean. Are they suggesting a low tax/low spend economy? I don't think so. I genuinely would love to know.Edinburger said:
This whole "takes more than it gives" is absolute bks.
How many jobs and businesses would relocate to Scotland? Civil service is, I believe, spread throughout the UK so a new structure would be required for iScotland and rUK.
How many small countries have gained independence and failed miserably?
Sudan (North / South), Zimbabwe, Kosovo, all gained independence in recent history all have struggled . Not all Civil service jobs would flow south but many would also, Scotland would face the bill of replacing them an thoes services but with a small pool to pay for them. The DVLA - how much would it cost to set up a new car number plate scheme ?. Tax collection how would that work you often say your tax office is in England so it would no longer be one assumes.ks. How many jobs and businesses would relocate to Scotland? Civil service is, I believe, spread throughout the UK so a new structure would be required for iScotland and rUK.
How many small countries have gained independence and failed miserably?
Defence how would you fund an air force etc even if you acquired the jets at indy how would you fund maintenance of a Typhoon etc. Its ok saing you dont need it but then actually the rUK might want you to defend your Northern Boarder and not doing so would have consequences i suspect
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