Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[neelyp]

sbarclay62 said:

Regarding the decriminalisation of drugs, is this so they can then 'treat' addicts of heroin, making it a health matter instead of a criminal one? Allow them to inject in safe and clean environment without having to beg and steal to raise enough money for a quick fix? As someone who lives in an area that was and still is blighted by drug problems i'm all for it. My first memory of school was needle awareness, told not to pick them up, phone police etc etc. That was pre devo and SNP but probably still there fault


Regarding the parking levy - again all for it. So long as the money is put back into public transport infrastructure. Within Edinburgh there aren't many places you can't reach via walking, cycing, bus and tram.

Unfortunately the majority of Scots don't stay or work in Edinburgh so bully for fking you.

[s2kjock]

I suspect the more rural cooncils won't take the opportunity to apply a levy given the grief they will get, not to mention the operational difficulties for employers (including the councils themselves).

Edinburgh just seems to do whatever it likes regardless of public opinion - they already make next to no provision for parking in new developments - more revenue, more pissing off the people that live in the city - win win in their eyes I imagine.

[sbarclay62]

neelyp said:

Unfortunately the majority of Scots don't stay or work in Edinburgh so bully for fking you.

Chances are it'll only be Edinburgh and Glasgow that will introduce it hence i mentioned the capital.. I live in Edinburgh so can only comment on that. Been to Glasgow stacks of times for fitba and gigs etc and seems a pretty accessible city with the clockwork orange and train system too.

[technodup]

Edinburger said:

Perhaps. But if we can actually reduce the drugs making it into the 'market', then that can only be a good thing.

So wee Scotland is going to win the war on drugs that the UK, US and a hundred others have failed so miserably at?

Do me a favour.

[Welshbeef]

technodup said:

Edinburger said:

Perhaps. But if we can actually reduce the drugs making it into the 'market', then that can only be a good thing.

So wee Scotland is going to win the war on drugs that the UK, US and a hundred others have failed so miserably at?

Do me a favour.

If it works great and everyone can replicate - if not then the policy would have to be reversed as no benefit.

[Welshbeef]

This border from Scotland to rUK/England land border.
Listening to R4 PM tonight on the drive home and it was very interesting to hear the specifics on this — well I was hoping to hear it however the person being interviewed kept talking about BREXIT and when Scotland are a EU member & UK not they could be the bridge to rebuild relations with the EU. He refused point blank to answer the border issue stating at best well we don’t know what will happen with BREXIT yet - challenged U.K. want to leave SM so it kind of dictates that there will be a border weather you like it or not.

[technodup]

Welshbeef said:

If it works great and everyone can replicate - if not then the policy would have to be reversed as no benefit.

It won't work and can't be reversed because they're not allowed to do it in the first place. It's not within their competence, not devolved, reserved, whatever. Usual SNP wishful thinking.

[andy_s]

The canny thing would be for Westminster to devolve the power for them to do it. Take the wind right out of their sails.

[simoid]

sbarclay62 said:

neelyp said:

Unfortunately the majority of Scots don't stay or work in Edinburgh so bully for fking you.

Chances are it'll only be Edinburgh and Glasgow that will introduce it hence i mentioned the capital.. I live in Edinburgh so can only comment on that. Been to Glasgow stacks of times for fitba and gigs etc and seems a pretty accessible city with the clockwork orange and train system too.

Believe it or not, not everyone who works in Edinburgh lives in Edinburgh. Plenty of folk can’t afford a house in Edinburgh or the public transport to get to work in Edinburgh - and it’s those low earners who would be hit with the parking tax.

Totally.

Bat st.

Idea.

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

Regardless of your political opinion, the decriminalisation of drugs is an interesting one.

Scotland has a big issue with illegal drugs. A good friend of mine is fairly high in the drug squad (pun intended) and he has often told me of their frustration that so much police time and resources at all levels are taken up with i) petty crime by users to fund their habit, and ii) small-time dealers.

Police Scotland's frustration seems to be that they want to focus their resources on the big dealers, the importers, etc., but are currently unable to do so.

So if this proposal allows them to do that then it might just be worth trying. I'd also like to see more focus on education and awareness of the dangers of drugs for younger kids to help prevent the next generation following that path.

As I understand it, the way the police work to get the big drug dealers is to flip someone lower in the food chain. If you remove their ability to prosecute the lowest level of the pyramid, it greatly reduces their ability to get the street dealers, which in turn means they can’t get their way into the bigger fish.

Another concern is that drug dealers will adapt and ensure they only ever have personal quantities on their person.

It’s designed to help the users but in reality it may well make drug dealing and trafficking harder to crack.

[NoddyonNitrous]

Nationalise the drug supply industry. Supply through Government-run outlets.
Eliminates the drug dealers, identifies the users so you can offer treatment. But nobody is brave enough to try it.

[simoid]

NoddyonNitrous said:

Nationalise the drug supply industry. Supply through Government-run outlets.
Eliminates the drug dealers, identifies the users so you can offer treatment. But nobody is brave enough to try it.

I’d go for that. Do we start to grow it ourselves or do our tax monies pay the cartels? I can only imagine the amount of income we’d make the exchequer.

[sbarclay62]

simoid said:

Believe it or not, not everyone who works in Edinburgh lives in Edinburgh. Plenty of folk can’t afford a house in Edinburgh or the public transport to get to work in Edinburgh - and it’s those low earners who would be hit with the parking tax.

Totally.

Bat st.

Idea.

If they're that low earners that they can't afford an extra 2 quid a day to park a car on top of the cost of running a car, what entices them to work in Edinburgh, with all the extra hassle that entails instead of just getting a local job? £2 for a full day's parking is still cheaper than £3.40 a day in busfares (return) or around the same as £2 a day for a bus-pass (£60 a month now i'd guess?) that local minimum wage staff will have to pay if they work and live in the city? Much a-do about nothing TBH.

Edinburgh's population is forever increasing and the road's can't handle it. If it can take some cars of the roads while increasing cycling, walking and other transport infrastructure i'm all for it.

[sbarclay62]

technodup said:

o wee Scotland is going to win the war on drugs that the UK, US and a hundred others have failed so miserably at?

Do me a favour.

Wee Portugal and Switzerland have decriminalised drugs and the latter dispense herion to addicts I believe. Both nations have seen good improvements I bellieve.

fk no's what population size has to do with anything

[Garvin]

sbarclay62 said:

simoid said:

Believe it or not, not everyone who works in Edinburgh lives in Edinburgh. Plenty of folk can’t afford a house in Edinburgh or the public transport to get to work in Edinburgh - and it’s those low earners who would be hit with the parking tax.

Totally.

Bat st.

Idea.

If they're that low earners that they can't afford an extra 2 quid a day to park a car on top of the cost of running a car, what entices them to work in Edinburgh, with all the extra hassle that entails instead of just getting a local job? £2 for a full day's parking is still cheaper than £3.40 a day in busfares (return) or around the same as £2 a day for a bus-pass (£60 a month now i'd guess?) that local minimum wage staff will have to pay if they work and live in the city? Much a-do about nothing TBH.

Edinburgh's population is forever increasing and the road's can't handle it. If it can take some cars of the roads while increasing cycling, walking and other transport infrastructure i'm all for it.

How is such a scheme administered?

[technodup]

sbarclay62 said:

technodup said:

o wee Scotland is going to win the war on drugs that the UK, US and a hundred others have failed so miserably at?

Do me a favour.

Wee Portugal and Switzerland have decriminalised drugs and the latter dispense herion to addicts I believe. Both nations have seen good improvements I bellieve.

fk no's what population size has to do with anything

If you'd taken half a second to understand what I was saying (or quoted the whole thing) Edinburgher mentioned stopping supply. That's quite different to decriminalising particular substances, and is what billions have been wasted on over recent decades.

I'm all in favour of a (vastly) more liberal drugs policy, however the SNP cannot deliver it.

[Ridgemont]

Welshbeef said:

This border from Scotland to rUK/England land border.
Listening to R4 PM tonight on the drive home and it was very interesting to hear the specifics on this — well I was hoping to hear it however the person being interviewed kept talking about BREXIT and when Scotland are a EU member & UK not they could be the bridge to rebuild relations with the EU. He refused point blank to answer the border issue stating at best well we don’t know what will happen with BREXIT yet - challenged U.K. want to leave SM so it kind of dictates that there will be a border weather you like it or not.

lol. Heard the same.

It was Stephen Gethins and the sheer amount of distraction flares fired off in that interview was something to behold.

Scotland being a ‘bridge between the U.K. and Europe’ repeated ad nauseum and absolutely no addressing the point.

if cranky gets her vote the border question will sink her. Based on wbat looks like is coming out of the current negotiations Scotland would be sunk.

[sbarclay62]

Garvin said:

How is such a scheme administered?

No idea and couldn't really care TBH. I'm sure its manageable as Nottingham has already proved.

[Not-The-Messiah]

simoid said:

NoddyonNitrous said:

Nationalise the drug supply industry. Supply through Government-run outlets.
Eliminates the drug dealers, identifies the users so you can offer treatment. But nobody is brave enough to try it.

I’d go for that. Do we start to grow it ourselves or do our tax monies pay the cartels? I can only imagine the amount of income we’d make the exchequer.

It's a tricky one drugs, my argument is people should be free to make the own choices. But ultimately if they do so they should live with the consciences of their actions.

We seem to live in a society that demands freedoms but refused to take responsibility for them. If adult make life choices that end up with them in a ditch then that's the cost of them freedom and I don't see why everyone else should be going running around helping them.

So I think be my guest take as much drugs as you like just don't go running to everyone else for sympathy and help if it leads you down the wrong path. It's going to be no one else's fault but your own.

Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Tuesday 15th October 18:07

[AstonZagato]

Not-The-Messiah said:

simoid said:

NoddyonNitrous said:

Nationalise the drug supply industry. Supply through Government-run outlets.
Eliminates the drug dealers, identifies the users so you can offer treatment. But nobody is brave enough to try it.

I’d go for that. Do we start to grow it ourselves or do our tax monies pay the cartels? I can only imagine the amount of income we’d make the exchequer.

It's a tricky one drugs, my argument is people should be free to make the own choices. But ultimately if they do so they should live with the consciences of their actions.

We seem to live in a society that demands freedoms but refused to take responsibility for them. If adult make life choices that end up with them in a ditch then that's the cost of them freedom and I don't see why everyone else should be going running around helping them.

So I think be my guest take as much drugs as you like just don't go running to everyone else for simpathy and help if it leads you down the wrong path. It's going to be no one elses fault but your own.

As a libertarian, I agree to a certain extent. However, I'd temper that with two things.

Firstly, that person's choices have implications for other people. Users commit violent offences while under the influence of drugs. There are drug-related driving offences. Users often turn to crime to fund their habit. There are estimates of around 306,000 heroin and / or crack users in England, with around 200,000 of them in treatment in any one year. That is a lot of theft, burglary, fraud or shoplifting if all are stealing to pay for things. This has led some people to suggest that up to half of all acquisitive crime is drug-related and that the market value of goods stolen involved could be between £2-2.5 billion each year. That needs to be tempered for the good of others in society. I think some strategies to provide users with a source of the drugs away from dealers might alleviate some of those problems around theft. I'd certainly be open to seeing an experiment (perhaps as large as Scotland-wide) to see if there is a benefit to society in seeing this (albeit, this is different from decriminalisation).

Secondly, basic human decency. I find it difficult that society could leave a person in a ditch, even if that is where they have chosen to fall. A minimum safety-net is still required. So perhaps I'm not fully libertarian.