Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Earthdweller said:
simoid said:
We know the SNP are operating on a different plane of reality to the rest of us with their financial figures - but today their finance spokesperson said we should stop focusing on money and concentrate on happiness! You couldn’t make it up 
“Let them eat happy” 
It's peculiarly myopic to seek to introduce it into an established society that is at the apex of humanity's standard of living and development - ever - and which seems to be ticking over quite well for most without any new-age gimmicks.
But EQUALITY! The only thing iScot will get is an equal level of unhappiness I'd imagine.
andy_s said:
It's an old idea from the seventies, sporadically popping up then disappearing again in the political landscape, usually favoured by green/left types [XR align with it] and notoriously difficult to pin down, which of course, is quite useful in certain circumstances...
It's peculiarly myopic to seek to introduce it into an established society that is at the apex of humanity's standard of living and development - ever - and which seems to be ticking over quite well for most without any new-age gimmicks.
Notorious lefty David Cameron also had a crack. Although he did change the logo to a tree, so maybe he was a secret lentil weaver:It's peculiarly myopic to seek to introduce it into an established society that is at the apex of humanity's standard of living and development - ever - and which seems to be ticking over quite well for most without any new-age gimmicks.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/nov/14/d...
glazbagun said:
Notorious lefty David Cameron also had a crack. Although he did change the logo to a tree, so maybe he was a secret lentil weaver:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/nov/14/d...
Ha - perhaps so, especially now - but I did caveat with 'usually'. It's one of those ideas 'I get', I understand how on paper it may be an interesting metric, but it's not really going to work in practise - whatever 'work' means. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/nov/14/d...
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By coincidence I was reading something just now on Yale -
..."The first problem on these campuses—and probably the most important one—is that the students, on the whole, aren’t terribly happy. The statistics, as we’ll see later, certainly back this up, as do the reports of Yale students clamoring to take the first-ever course offered on “Happiness,” which became the most widely subscribed to class in the university’s more than 300-year history; a quarter of Yale undergraduates enrolled. A freshman taking the class explained the appeal to the New York Times: “In reality, a lot of us are anxious, stressed, unhappy, numb…The fact that a class like this has such large interest speaks to how tired students are of numbing their emotions—both positive and negative—so they can focus on their work, the next step, the next accomplishment.” Philosophical beliefs on happiness being achieved through developing strong habits etc. (some of which can indeed be taught) temporarily aside, the fact that a quarter of Yale students would need to enroll [sic] in a class such as this—to the point that the university would exhaust its entire psychology department staff filling it with the necessary teaching fellows—doesn’t exactly bode well as a barometer for the collective mental well-being of Yale students, a point even acknowledged by the course’s instructor, Professor Laurie Santos: “Students want to change…the culture here on campus.”...
E. Prince; Quillette
Edited by andy_s on Monday 11th November 23:45
DC's enquiry did have some conclusions IIRC. The only one I remember is that people liked to be around people like themselves, which is unfortunate for multiculturalists. I'll see if I can dig it up over lunch tomorrow, I think it was on the ONS website.
Other studies have found that there's a point above which extra cash doesn't lead to a proportional increase in happiness.
Personally I think, athiest though I am, that the decline in religion and subsequent clash/void of values and sense of cultural belonging has much to do with unhappiness, too. Not least when the fundamental tenent of all advertising is to create an unfulfilled need in the consumer.
Being poor is still s
t though, even if being rich can be pretty miserable too.
Other studies have found that there's a point above which extra cash doesn't lead to a proportional increase in happiness.
Personally I think, athiest though I am, that the decline in religion and subsequent clash/void of values and sense of cultural belonging has much to do with unhappiness, too. Not least when the fundamental tenent of all advertising is to create an unfulfilled need in the consumer.
Being poor is still s
t though, even if being rich can be pretty miserable too.simoid said:
We know the SNP are operating on a different plane of reality to the rest of us with their financial figures - but today their finance spokesperson said we should stop focusing on money and concentrate on happiness! You couldn’t make it up
There are some things the Jocks do.There are some things the Jocks DON'T do.
The most important thing that Jocks DON'T do is happy.
It's just not in their psyche.
The lesser spotted Sturgeon was actually spotted in her constituency yesterday. Some would say a bit too late, otherwise she may have been in the shop at the time it burnt down.
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/ni...
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/ni...
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
No, it's not. Leaving the EU is a fundamental change to what some Scots voted to remain part of in 2014. And more Scots voted to remain the EU so this should be revisited.
It should not. There is no 'Scotland' as far as the EU vote goes. It concerned the UK, not Scotland, England, London or any other entity you want to try to make a biased case for.As far as fundamental change goes, the biggest of them that's actually been implemented in recent times was devolution. I think we've had time to assess its merits, and I'd now like my People's Confirmatory Vote where naturally I actually want to change the result.
We might start from a low base but campaigns are funny beasts, I think you'd be surprised by how many despise the SNP and their figureheads and would go back in a shot.
One day, your wife tells you she's really unhappy. You discuss this at length and discuss the pros and cons of separation and eventually, you both agree to go for counselling. So you spend a lot of time with a marriage guidance counseller and eventually agree how you both need to change and adapt your behaviours and you agree to stay together and have another go of it.
Things are going well for a few years and then out of the blue your wife mentions over dinner that she's realised she is bi-sexual and wants to have an affair with her girlfriend and actually she wants her to move in wth you and your family.
Now - boy'ish bravado and sexual masculinity aside - that is a fundamental change to your marriage.
Are you both entitled to re-consider the validity of this marriage? Would you expect your counsellor to say to you "no, no, you decided to stay together a few years ago when we spoke so that's the end of it"?
No, you wouldn't. See my point?
simoid said:
Edinburger said:
simoid said:
Edinburger said:
I was working in London for a few days this week and a few colleagues were asking about this. Their opinion was that the Scots should get another independence referendum because we voted to remain part of the UK within Europe and that's about to change.
Hard to argue with them.
Not really difficult.Hard to argue with them.
That was a known risk when we voted in our once in a lifetime referendum. Just like oil revenues collapsing, Salmond turning out to be a bare faced liar, Trump getting in and taxing hell out of Whisky, etc. We took the risk that we wouldn’t agree with everything that happened whether we were in or out of UK.
biggles330d said:
I suppose if Scotland did vote again to leave the UK and got a majority, and reapplied for EU membership and managed to meet all entry criteria, at least the currency issue would be clear. Scotland would have to adopt the Euro.
I guess having different currencies between Ireland and Northern Ireland works fine, so not a big deal.
No doubt SNP would argue that they'll either be allowed to keep Sterling or have their own McCurrency though.
Yep, bang on.I guess having different currencies between Ireland and Northern Ireland works fine, so not a big deal.
No doubt SNP would argue that they'll either be allowed to keep Sterling or have their own McCurrency though.
Evercross said:
Edinburger said:
No, it's not. Leaving the EU is a fundamental change to what some Scots voted to remain part of in 2014. And more Scots voted to remain the EU so this should be revisited.
Seeing as we are quoting meaningless statistics - more Scots voted to leave in the EU in 2016 than voted for the SNP in the General Election of 2017.Nicola this week branded all Brexiteers hard-right extremists. I wonder how Mhairi Black took that criticism?
Everything to play for...
The Mad Monk said:
Edinburger said:
I was working in London for a few days this week and a few colleagues were asking about this. Their opinion was that the Scots should get another independence referendum because we voted to remain part of the UK within Europe and that's about to change.
Hard to argue with them.
Au contraire.Hard to argue with them.
Scots voted to remain part of the UK. (That was a full stop).
Wombat3 said:
Edinburger said:
Wombat3 said:
Edinburger said:
I was working in London for a few days this week and a few colleagues were asking about this. Their opinion was that the Scots should get another independence referendum because we voted to remain part of the UK within Europe and that's about to change.
Hard to argue with them.
What a load of crap.Hard to argue with them.
2013 - EU referendum announced by Cameron with commitment to implement outcome
2014 SNP (Scottish Gov't) goes to EU and asks for Indy Scot EU membership as "a Successor state" nonsense. EU says no....at least twice, in writing.
2014 UK Govt helpfully points out that therefore the ONLY way Scotland can remain in the EU is to remain part of the UK.
2014 Scotland votes to remain in the UK but in the full knowledge that a UK wide EU ref was coming in 2016
Blindingly obvious that one possible outcome of that would be that the whole UK would leave.
Nobody ever promised Scotland that voting to remain in the UK would guarantee continued EU membership beyond 2016.
Meanwhile, leaving the UK would have guaranteed that Scotland would have had to leave the EU in 2014.
Even after we have left Indy Scotland doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of meeting the joining criteria & the Spanish are going to do everything possible to block it happening anyway.
THOSE are the facts.
SNP: "Democracy is great as long as we win"
Edited by Wombat3 on Friday 8th November 16:21
Here is a fairly pragmatic article outlining it - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explaine...
HTH
Edinburger said:
<<stuff>>
See my point?
No. Your analogy is about as off as it can be as the number of variables involved in politics and society are so varied that anyone with an ounce of intelligence and common sense knows that things do and will change. You cannot vote on an event in the belief that it will bind all future events.See my point?
Only an idiot or a particularly belligerent SNat pushing a mendacious narrative would say that the outcome of a future EU referendum could only go one way, and because it went another that was unforeseeable and a grounds for complaint.
Anyhoo, it is obvious that the SNP are being left trailing in the Brexit argument (the NHS Americanisation straw-man being a particular sign of over-reach and desperation), and Jim Sillars is being proven so on the button when he said all that time ago that it was a fatal error for Nippy to link Scottish independence with the EU issue.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 12th November 10:40
Evercross said:
hidetheelephants said:
Keeping Sterling is not compatible with EU membership nor entry to the eurozone, that much was made clear in 2014, never mind the concept of the BoE being LOLR is slightly less popular with most non-SNP politicians than a stale st sandwich.
The party members know that Scotland having its own currency is the only viable first step forward. Remember - all the other suggestions were made in the days when Salmond the liar was in charge. The current fluff about Sterlingisation is just the party executive slowly backing away from Salmond's lies.t sandwich.Welshbeef said:
Edinburger said:
Welshbeef said:
REALIST123 said:
Could you read through that and edit it into English, Welshbeef.......
Sure. The Scottish position is a farce and utterly unfair to other parts of the U.K.
You understand the principle of devolution, I assume?
Then Scotland’s deficit 2018/19 year £15billion, U.K. as a TOTAL £23billion deficit.
So in addition to paying more to your citizens your not even remotely brining in enough tax for it and forcing future generations of the U.K. to pay for your excesses.
Given Income tax is £11 billion in its entirety and way over half the working population in Scotland work in the public sector & the U.K. subs out lots of work to Scotland for those public sector workers. I just wonder what jobs and where the £ or €$¥ will come from to pay for the future?
Bearing that in mind, you could also consider that many taxpayers in Scotland pay more than their counterparts in rUK.
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