Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Pastor Of Muppets said:
A 2nd ref if there was one would be a very different affair from the first one, brexit being the main reason.
The electorate are now in possesion of a lot more facts regarding breaking away from a union than they were
in 2014, they have seen the problems it can cause, For more than 3 years now it has been on the news every single
day relentlessly and caused nothing but chaos and division, and that will undoubtedly have a huge impact on a
potential Scexit. I think it will now be a much harder sell than it ever was.
Combine that with the fact that 55% of Scots didn't vote for the SNP and not all of their 45% of voters want independence,
plus Boris making it crystal clear he isn't going to give the go ahead, then I dont think we need worry about the
misery of having to go through yet another devisive referendum any time soon.
This all day long. I just can't see the debacle of Brexit, and consequent danger of Scexit as being the catalyst they need to take their numbers up as the require.The electorate are now in possesion of a lot more facts regarding breaking away from a union than they were
in 2014, they have seen the problems it can cause, For more than 3 years now it has been on the news every single
day relentlessly and caused nothing but chaos and division, and that will undoubtedly have a huge impact on a
potential Scexit. I think it will now be a much harder sell than it ever was.
Combine that with the fact that 55% of Scots didn't vote for the SNP and not all of their 45% of voters want independence,
plus Boris making it crystal clear he isn't going to give the go ahead, then I dont think we need worry about the
misery of having to go through yet another devisive referendum any time soon.
You'd think they'd want polling around 55% to go for it. Simpletons will see that as 10% extra, i.e. f
k all, (or only 5% for a majority) but is reality it's a 22% uplift on 2014 and I just can't see where they're coming from. Even to pass the 50% in the vote it's 11% extra, not accounting for any previous Yesses going No (which will be many).
Everybody's pretty entrenched and I just can't see many switchers going their way. I think the opposite would be true.
B210bandit said:
Ask New Zealand. Similar population, farming people many of whom are Scottish in origin. Much more isolated than Scotland so not a diverse economy like Scotland. Independence looks OK. They don't miss being told what to do by London.
The Queen is their head of state, and exercises power through her Governor General. Is this what the Scots want?technodup said:
his all day long. I just can't see the debacle of Brexit, and consequent danger of Scexit as being the catalyst they need to take their numbers up as the require.
You'd think they'd want polling around 55% to go for it. Simpletons will see that as 10% extra, i.e. fk all,
(or only 5% for a majority) but is reality it's a 22% uplift on 2014 and I just can't see where they're coming from. Even to pass the 50% in the vote it's 11% extra, not accounting for any previous Yesses going No (which will be many).
Everybody's pretty entrenched and I just can't see many switchers going their way. I think the opposite would be true.
Agreed, The SNP need ALL polls to show a consistent minimum of 55-60% support for YES over a few months time period for You'd think they'd want polling around 55% to go for it. Simpletons will see that as 10% extra, i.e. f
k all, (or only 5% for a majority) but is reality it's a 22% uplift on 2014 and I just can't see where they're coming from. Even to pass the 50% in the vote it's 11% extra, not accounting for any previous Yesses going No (which will be many).
Everybody's pretty entrenched and I just can't see many switchers going their way. I think the opposite would be true.
in order for a second try.
Only then might Boris have to concede to a inydref 2
Ayahuasca said:
I can see the emotional argument for independence - it is what every patriot should want for their country.
But the English do not have same yearning for English independence. Maybe because most English people identify as British first and view Scotland and Wales also as parts of Britain.
Interestingly King James VI and I (Scottish born) referred to Scotland as North Britain. Didn’t seem to take though.
"The English don't yearn for independence". Of course they don't. by sheer weight of numbers the UK is totally Anglocentric.But the English do not have same yearning for English independence. Maybe because most English people identify as British first and view Scotland and Wales also as parts of Britain.
Interestingly King James VI and I (Scottish born) referred to Scotland as North Britain. Didn’t seem to take though.
The fact that the English used military force, forced clearance etc.etc is neither here nor there!!
ArmaghMan said:
"The English don't yearn for independence". Of course they don't. by sheer weight of numbers the UK is totally Anglocentric.
The fact that the English used military force, forced clearance etc.etc is neither here nor there!!
I missed this in the news. When did this happen?The fact that the English used military force, forced clearance etc.etc is neither here nor there!!
ArmaghMan said:
Ayahuasca said:
I can see the emotional argument for independence - it is what every patriot should want for their country.
But the English do not have same yearning for English independence. Maybe because most English people identify as British first and view Scotland and Wales also as parts of Britain.
Interestingly King James VI and I (Scottish born) referred to Scotland as North Britain. Didn’t seem to take though.
"The English don't yearn for independence". Of course they don't. by sheer weight of numbers the UK is totally Anglocentric.But the English do not have same yearning for English independence. Maybe because most English people identify as British first and view Scotland and Wales also as parts of Britain.
Interestingly King James VI and I (Scottish born) referred to Scotland as North Britain. Didn’t seem to take though.
The fact that the English used military force, forced clearance etc.etc is neither here nor there!!
t loads of venom to spout about the Romans, Vikings, etc etc.Carry on.....
Janluke said:
I'm not convinced the SNP want a second referendum at the moment, there hasnt been a big enough shift in opinion and people here don't want the same level of uncertainty that brexit has delivered. I think their aim is to get Boris to refuse thus enabling them to whip up a storm of outrage and fan the flames hoping the numbers don’t change so they can govern in perpetuity using the large minority of independence dreamers
EFA.There is absolutely no legitimacy for another referendum.
1. The SNP got one 5 years ago that was supposed to be for a generation.
2. Brexit was a mere excuse, Sturgeon has said numerous times that if there is no Brexit she still wants an indyref. Therefore Brexit is not a reason.
3. The UK, including Scotland, has just elected a Conservative and Unionist government who said in their manifesto there will be no more referendums.
4. The SNP use Scottish parliament elections as barometric evidence for the legitimacy of a referendum, but reserved matters are f
k all to do with Scottish government.5. Scots clearly don’t want a referendum or independence as only 45% voted for SNP, and 1% extra if you include the Greenies.
https://www.effiedeans.com/2019/12/the-snp-are-una...
Effie said:
So, for those who haven’t been following closely. Here is the strategy.
Get us out of the EU.
Don’t agree with the SNP about anything. Don’t give any legitimacy to their narrative and don’t think or talk about Scotland as being in any way separate.
Don’t think that another independence referendum and another nationalist defeat would make the SNP give up their dream of independence. It wouldn’t. It would fuel it. Didn’t you watch last time?
Give us time. Delay.
Leaving the EU will make the whole of the UK gradually diverge from our European neighbors. As they continue to unite, we will continue to be different. In time this will make the idea of rejoining seem quaint, then it will be impossible. Let us take back control of those massive chunks of ordinary life that the EU presently controls and then let the SNP explain that they are going to give them up in order to join a federal EU. Let them explain how keeping the pound is consistent with promising to give it up. Let them explain how an independent Scotland would start life both outside the UK and outside the EU having to negotiate trade deals with both.
That’s it.
Keep fighting folks. We are winning.
Get us out of the EU.
Don’t agree with the SNP about anything. Don’t give any legitimacy to their narrative and don’t think or talk about Scotland as being in any way separate.
Don’t think that another independence referendum and another nationalist defeat would make the SNP give up their dream of independence. It wouldn’t. It would fuel it. Didn’t you watch last time?
Give us time. Delay.
Leaving the EU will make the whole of the UK gradually diverge from our European neighbors. As they continue to unite, we will continue to be different. In time this will make the idea of rejoining seem quaint, then it will be impossible. Let us take back control of those massive chunks of ordinary life that the EU presently controls and then let the SNP explain that they are going to give them up in order to join a federal EU. Let them explain how keeping the pound is consistent with promising to give it up. Let them explain how an independent Scotland would start life both outside the UK and outside the EU having to negotiate trade deals with both.
That’s it.
Keep fighting folks. We are winning.
Edited by simoid on Saturday 14th December 18:02
OK, if you're the SNP and you genuinely think the Tories/Brexit will be terrible for Scotland, would you not want to wait a couple of years, then say "look how awful things are; independence now!"?
Conversely if in a couple of years time folks north of the Border say "och, things are going quite nicely" then the desire for independence will be much less. Perhaps a competent Tory government, and a sensible Brexit outcome is what Wee Nippy fears the most?
Conversely if in a couple of years time folks north of the Border say "och, things are going quite nicely" then the desire for independence will be much less. Perhaps a competent Tory government, and a sensible Brexit outcome is what Wee Nippy fears the most?
B210bandit said:
Ask New Zealand. Similar population, farming people many of whom are Scottish in origin. Much more isolated than Scotland so not a diverse economy like Scotland. Independence looks OK. They don't miss being told what to do by London.
Similar sized population maybe, but a completely different social and psychological outlook between them. I spent many years living and working in Scotland and have a close cousin in New Zealand for the last twenty years and have visited a few times; the pioneering and go-getting atitude in NZ is almost a polar opposite to the increasingly chippy and socially dependent proportion of Scots as well the extensive and almost unstoppable spreading drink and drugs addiction.
Throw in the huge climate difference, as New Zealand summers, and winters, are simply stunning, which means the Kiwis attract many more millions through tourism and you have a huge difference between the countries populations and potentials so I think your attempted comparison is complete hogwash.
Should Scotland have a second 'once-in-a-generation' referendum? I think the numbers are still, perhaps even further, against them; as mentioned above, the 45% that voted for the SNP won't all be Independence supporters but a greater proportion of the 55% that didn't vote for them will in all likelihood be supporters of the Union.
As I have mentioned previously, demanding a second 'once-in-a-generation' independence referendum so soon after a definitive No in the first leaves Westminster honour bound to offer a third if an unlikely Yes is the result of a second and there are any subsequent calls for yet another vote.
There will be a period of negotiation after a potential Yes so if there are any calls for a third referendum, or even calls from the outer islands to separately stay with the UK, then surely they should be honoured? To do otherwise would deny those who perhaps rely more on the UK infrastructure their democratic right to determine their future, wouldn't it?
The SNP should be taking their successful election results as a cue to show they can run a country honestly, well and responsibly; can anyone truthfully say their record thus far demonstrates that ability?
As for their indepence plans, they should be asked plainly and clearly by their voting population, by Westminster and by the EU what are their plans and road map ahead should they gain Independence. The constant blatant lies regarding EU membership, currency and current fiscal responsibility are beyond the pale and cannot be still believed in any way, shape or form.
Brave Fart said:
OK, if you're the SNP and you genuinely think the Tories/Brexit will be terrible for Scotland, would you not want to wait a couple of years, then say "look how awful things are; independence now!"?
Conversely if in a couple of years time folks north of the Border say "och, things are going quite nicely" then the desire for independence will be much less. Perhaps a competent Tory government, and a sensible Brexit outcome is what Wee Nippy fears the most?
Good idea, but, you are presuming that they think rationally! There is already one loonie, with 58K followers on tConversely if in a couple of years time folks north of the Border say "och, things are going quite nicely" then the desire for independence will be much less. Perhaps a competent Tory government, and a sensible Brexit outcome is what Wee Nippy fears the most?
tter calling for UDI and civic disobedience.You really could not make this **** up!
Very good post McGee.
For those Nats currently missing from the thread I hate to throw a big damp towel on your beloved SNP's jubilation so early on, but the fact is that Scotland is now leaving the EU next month and there’s no plan in place to do anything about it. Any chance of an orderly transition for an independent Scotland before the UK is fully out has been well and truly squandered. Whatever happens, the process will now be much more complicated and difficult and therefore offputting to voters should indyref 2 ever actually happen.
For the time being Scotland is safe from being dragged off an indy cliff edge of catastrophe and destruction by wannabe Queen Nicola.
Time to start concentrating on real issues hen, how about starting with Scotlands drug death epidemic?.
For those Nats currently missing from the thread I hate to throw a big damp towel on your beloved SNP's jubilation so early on, but the fact is that Scotland is now leaving the EU next month and there’s no plan in place to do anything about it. Any chance of an orderly transition for an independent Scotland before the UK is fully out has been well and truly squandered. Whatever happens, the process will now be much more complicated and difficult and therefore offputting to voters should indyref 2 ever actually happen.
For the time being Scotland is safe from being dragged off an indy cliff edge of catastrophe and destruction by wannabe Queen Nicola.
Time to start concentrating on real issues hen, how about starting with Scotlands drug death epidemic?.
McGee_22 said:
As I have mentioned previously, demanding a second 'once-in-a-generation' independence referendum so soon after a definitive No in the first leaves Westminster honour bound to offer a third if an unlikely Yes is the result of a second and there are any subsequent calls for yet another vote.
There will be a period of negotiation after a potential Yes so if there are any calls for a third referendum, or even calls from the outer islands to separately stay with the UK, then surely they should be honoured? To do otherwise would deny those who perhaps rely more on the UK infrastructure their democratic right to determine their future, wouldn't it?
What makes you think Westminster would be the arbiter for a 3rd Ref if in the unlikely skenario that Scotland votes yes in the 2nd Ref ?There will be a period of negotiation after a potential Yes so if there are any calls for a third referendum, or even calls from the outer islands to separately stay with the UK, then surely they should be honoured? To do otherwise would deny those who perhaps rely more on the UK infrastructure their democratic right to determine their future, wouldn't it?
That decision would lie with Holyrood
Cantaloupe said:
McGee_22 said:
As I have mentioned previously, demanding a second 'once-in-a-generation' independence referendum so soon after a definitive No in the first leaves Westminster honour bound to offer a third if an unlikely Yes is the result of a second and there are any subsequent calls for yet another vote.
There will be a period of negotiation after a potential Yes so if there are any calls for a third referendum, or even calls from the outer islands to separately stay with the UK, then surely they should be honoured? To do otherwise would deny those who perhaps rely more on the UK infrastructure their democratic right to determine their future, wouldn't it?
What makes you think Westminster would be the arbiter for a 3rd Ref if in the unlikely skenario that Scotland votes yes in the 2nd Ref ?There will be a period of negotiation after a potential Yes so if there are any calls for a third referendum, or even calls from the outer islands to separately stay with the UK, then surely they should be honoured? To do otherwise would deny those who perhaps rely more on the UK infrastructure their democratic right to determine their future, wouldn't it?
That decision would lie with Holyrood
Firstly Scotland isn't a country, it used to be, but it hasn't been one for over 400 years now, Scotland is a region of United Kingdom!.
Independence is all about the oil, before the oil was discovered the Scottish people were quite happy being in the union.
there is an attitude off what is Scottish its ours such as oil, when it suits it is shared such as the currency
The SNP keep going on about Scottish only issues in the UK Parliament with no regard for the rest of the UK, When they don't get their way the SNP MPs complain that they are supposed to be a union of equals and things are not going Scotlands way.
There has been to much of tail wags the dog as it is, after all the majority of people in the Union don't live in Scotland.
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