Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
said:
Nothing as far as referenda are concerned, because a devolved assembly does not have the powers to conduct referenda on constitutional matters.
Yes, I know that, but in a hypothetical situation with all polls showing a 50/50 % Yes-No for 6 consecutive months, plus Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even
with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable
request for another ref ?
Cantaloupe said:
Yes, I know that, but in a hypothetical situation with all polls showing a 50/50 % Yes-No for 6 consecutive months, plus Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable request for another ref?
If we ever get that far, come back to me.Considering I've been listening to incessant Nationalists say that Brexit/Boris/Toarees/May/Trump/The High Court/The ECHR/the weather were intrinsically going to lead to the above last week/month/year, I'm not going to hold my breath.
PS. The answer is still the same though!
PPS. You might want to have a read of the 'Careful What you Whinge For' article I linked to a couple of pages back. The author makes the very good point that whole reason for devolution is that it ALLOWS for devolved assemblies to have opposing views to the national parliament and for them to be led by different parties. An overwhelming SNP working majority would be a sign that devolution is in action and functioning correctly. It is not a sign that things are going wrong and more appeasement is required! The whole point of devolving powers is that the people in charge of them no longer need to be listened to at the higher level as far as those matters are concerned as they have full control at their level already.
Edited by Evercross on Sunday 19th January 17:10
Cantaloupe said:
Yes, I know that, but in a hypothetical situation with all polls showing a 50/50 % Yes-No for 6 consecutive months, plus
Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even
with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable
request for another ref ?
Is anyone really watching though? Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even
with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable
request for another ref ?
I think it would be utterly unwise, when support for independence has historically been 35% or so, 45% at a peak, to give a referendum on such a flimsy basis. You could have the situation where a handful of opinion polls in a short period over-ride decades of real and consistent public opinion. As they say, they only need to win once, and a temporary spike in support shouldn't be the time.
Although it's entirely possible that as per Brexit they might have to win more than once, one way or another. Something they seem to miss, even though it's staring them in the face.
Cantaloupe said:
Yes, I know that, but in a hypothetical situation with all polls showing a 50/50 % Yes-No for 6 consecutive months, plus
Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even
with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable
request for another ref ?
Is the world bothered about Catalonia?Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even
with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable
request for another ref ?
Boris also has the ultimate kryptonite...It was ”a once in a lifetime poll”.
loafer123 said:
Boris also has the ultimate kryptonite...It was ”a once in a lifetime poll”.
Which 'The National' has applied several paragraphs of creative interpretation to try and argue black is white, 2+2=5 and Fat Eck and Wee Nippy had their fingers crossed when they said it so it doesn't count, apparently.technodup said:
Is anyone really watching though?
Until Nippy has something new to say, probably not.Nothing to see here until March 9th.....
Evercross said:
Cantaloupe said:
Yes, I know that, but in a hypothetical situation with all polls showing a 50/50 % Yes-No for 6 consecutive months, plus Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable request for another ref?
If we ever get that far, come back to me.Considering I've been listening to incessant Nationalists say that Brexit/Boris/Toarees/May/Trump/The High Court/The ECHR/the weather were intrinsically going to lead to the above last week/month/year, I'm not going to hold my breath.
PS. The answer is still the same though!
PPS. You might want to have a read of the 'Careful What you Whinge For' article I linked to a couple of pages back. The author makes the very good point that whole reason for devolution is that it ALLOWS for devolved assemblies to have opposing views to the national parliament and for them to be led by different parties. An overwhelming SNP working majority would be a sign that devolution is in action and functioning correctly. It is not a sign that things are going wrong and more appeasement is required! The whole point of devolving powers is that the people in charge of them no longer need to be listened to at the higher level as far as those matters are concerned as they have full control at their level already.
Edited by Evercross on Sunday 19th January 17:10
I agree with him: there needs to be fundamental change once we have left the EU and there's only two ways I can see that working - either i) a federal model or ii) Scottish independence.
Edinburger said:
On your final paragraph, this ties in with Gordon Brown's recent comments (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51178628).
It absolutely doesn't. Edinburger said:
I agree with him: there needs to be fundamental change once we have left the EU and there's only two ways I can see that working - either i) a federal model or ii) Scottish independence.
Brown is blathering, as are you. There is no appetite for a federal UK except in the minds of a few politicians who think more government is always a good thing (because it is their thing and it is what keeps them and their ilk on the gravy-train), and we have discussed ad-nauseum why EU membership or lack thereof is not a reason to break up another union, except in the minds of those who want to link the two issues for their own ends.Plus, as we have seen very clearly in Scotland since 2007, more government when it is placed in the hands of incompetent agitators results in misuse and abuse of office to foment division while the responsibilities bequeathed to that government go neglected.
Edited by Evercross on Monday 20th January 13:51
Evercross said:
Edinburger said:
On your final paragraph, this ties in with Gordon Brown's recent comments (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51178628).
It absolutely doesn't. Edinburger said:
I agree with him: there needs to be fundamental change once we have left the EU and there's only two ways I can see that working - either i) a federal model or ii) Scottish independence.
Brown is blathering, as are you. There is no appetite for a federal UK except in the minds of a few politicians who think more government is always a good thing (because it is their thing and it is what keeps them and their ilk on the gravy-train), and we have discussed ad-nauseum why EU membership or lack thereof is not a reason to break up another union, except in the minds of those who want to link the two issues for their own ends.Plus, as we have seen very clearly in Scotland since 2007, more government when it is placed in the hands of incompetent agitators results in misuse and abuse of office to foment division.
Remind me - where do you live?
Edinburger said:
Evercross said:
Cantaloupe said:
Yes, I know that, but in a hypothetical situation with all polls showing a 50/50 % Yes-No for 6 consecutive months, plus Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable request for another ref?
If we ever get that far, come back to me.Considering I've been listening to incessant Nationalists say that Brexit/Boris/Toarees/May/Trump/The High Court/The ECHR/the weather were intrinsically going to lead to the above last week/month/year, I'm not going to hold my breath.
PS. The answer is still the same though!
PPS. You might want to have a read of the 'Careful What you Whinge For' article I linked to a couple of pages back. The author makes the very good point that whole reason for devolution is that it ALLOWS for devolved assemblies to have opposing views to the national parliament and for them to be led by different parties. An overwhelming SNP working majority would be a sign that devolution is in action and functioning correctly. It is not a sign that things are going wrong and more appeasement is required! The whole point of devolving powers is that the people in charge of them no longer need to be listened to at the higher level as far as those matters are concerned as they have full control at their level already.
Edited by Evercross on Sunday 19th January 17:10
I agree with him: there needs to be fundamental change once we have left the EU and there's only two ways I can see that working - either i) a federal model or ii) Scottish independence.
You might argue for that kind of change when its clearly demonstrated that the existing system can deliver nothing better than is currently being delivered.
This goes back to the idea that the SNP should STFU about independence and try spending time & effort on actually running Scotland properly - or are you going to try & argue that they are doing the best job that is humanly possible with the resources they have available? Until then its frying pans & fires & change for the sake of it.
PS anyone that takes a lead from an incompetent t
t like Brown needs to give their head a wobble.Wombat3 said:
Edinburger said:
Evercross said:
Cantaloupe said:
Yes, I know that, but in a hypothetical situation with all polls showing a 50/50 % Yes-No for 6 consecutive months, plus Holyrood having a overwhelming working SNP majority, would it be wise, prudent, counter-productive, perverse even with all the world watching agog, for a Tory administration to still stubbornly refuse another, not unreasonable request for another ref?
If we ever get that far, come back to me.Considering I've been listening to incessant Nationalists say that Brexit/Boris/Toarees/May/Trump/The High Court/The ECHR/the weather were intrinsically going to lead to the above last week/month/year, I'm not going to hold my breath.
PS. The answer is still the same though!
PPS. You might want to have a read of the 'Careful What you Whinge For' article I linked to a couple of pages back. The author makes the very good point that whole reason for devolution is that it ALLOWS for devolved assemblies to have opposing views to the national parliament and for them to be led by different parties. An overwhelming SNP working majority would be a sign that devolution is in action and functioning correctly. It is not a sign that things are going wrong and more appeasement is required! The whole point of devolving powers is that the people in charge of them no longer need to be listened to at the higher level as far as those matters are concerned as they have full control at their level already.
Edited by Evercross on Sunday 19th January 17:10
I agree with him: there needs to be fundamental change once we have left the EU and there's only two ways I can see that working - either i) a federal model or ii) Scottish independence.
You might argue for that kind of change when its clearly demonstrated that the existing system can deliver nothing better than is currently being delivered.
This goes back to the idea that the SNP should STFU about independence and try spending time & effort on actually running Scotland properly - or are you going to try & argue that they are doing the best job that is humanly possible with the resources they have available? Until then its frying pans & fires & change for the sake of it.
PS anyone that takes a lead from an incompetent t
t like Brown needs to give their head a wobble.You know I think the SNP's focus should be on running and improving Scotland.
Edinburger said:
hutchst said:
It's hard to argue with his conclusion that if more people decide to vote for another referendum then more people will vote for another referendum. It's not hard to see how he got to be a professor.
Was this aimed at me?Who is a professor?
Edinburger said:
Perhaps I should have said those are the only two models which might satisfy someone who's priority is self-determination for the people of Scotland.
Which is a minority of the people of Scotland. Take away the people who want independence because of their xenophobic dislike of the English plus the ones who treat it as a proxy for anti-Toryism and the number is even less.Plus, what exactly is 'self-determination' anyway as it is too broad-brush a term. The question always exist as to whether it makes sense to have overarching services micromanaged to the same conclusion by disparate groups when it would be more efficient to manage them centrally. Some services do merit local treatment, which is why devolution is the solution we have reached.
Unfortunately a group of political opportunists want to abuse it for their own ambitions though.
Evercross said:
Edinburger said:
Perhaps I should have said those are the only two models which might satisfy someone who's priority is self-determination for the people of Scotland.
Which is a minority of the people of Scotland. Take away the people who want independence because of their xenophobic dislike of the English plus the ones who treat it as a proxy for anti-Toryism and the number is even less.Plus, what exactly is 'self-determination' anyway as it is too broad-brush a term. The question always exist as to whether it makes sense to have overarching services micromanaged to the same conclusion by disparate groups when it would be more efficient to manage them centrally. Some services do merit local treatment, which is why devolution is the solution we have reached.
Unfortunately a group of political opportunists want to abuse it for their own ambitions though.
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