Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Strocky said:
Nope outsourcing via the DVLA in the short term makes economic sense however not too sure how much control a "database" can inflict on a population? Is your dandruff silver and shiny??
It's not independence if you're running to England for all the bits you can't do yourself. It's the very opposite of independence ffs. And whilst the DVLA might not require control, the same cannot be said for the currency you plan to share. Not to mention the fact that if the UK knows you need these various services (which it would), your negotiating hand is weak af. - You lost as recently as last night no matter how much you want to deny it, electorally you're BOTH Scottish and British
Like the referendum, last night was a UK vote. Only one one winner. Nobody in yellow is going to sit on the government side.
Leithen said:
We're back to all the same issues discussed ad infinitum over the last eight volumes of this thread.
There's no silver bullet, no hidden wealth, no easy answers to the obvious issues. This matters not a jot to some, which is fine, but there needs to be some brutal honesty that nothing has changed.
Agree with you until the end, but come on nothing has changed since 2014? Really?There's no silver bullet, no hidden wealth, no easy answers to the obvious issues. This matters not a jot to some, which is fine, but there needs to be some brutal honesty that nothing has changed.
And TBF a fair few infinitum's are based on easily shot down lazy tropes repeated by the mainstream media on a loop
Big-Bo-Beep said:
Somewhat changed though ?
, SNP have more MP's to shout and snort derision at Boris in the commons but, this time the tories have a working majority and a mandate, and can pass what the f*** legislation they want. The SNP's dream of being in big-time politics and holding the keys to power is over.
I await with much anticipation Boris's derisive question time put-downs at the expense of the windbag Blackford
Here's a hint none of the SNP MP's want to be in the WM pantomime*, SNP have more MP's to shout and snort derision at Boris in the commons but, this time the tories have a working majority and a mandate, and can pass what the f*** legislation they want. The SNP's dream of being in big-time politics and holding the keys to power is over.
I await with much anticipation Boris's derisive question time put-downs at the expense of the windbag Blackford
Well apart from a few careerists (like every party, the pay is good)
simoid said:
The SNP support is in decline since the referendum. After the bounce in 2015, peak SNP of almost 50% votes and nearly every seat in Scotland, they’re back down to 45%. And that’s with nasty Tories and Brexit. Ship sailed for independence and all that remains is sore losers keeping the ‘experts in winning large minorities’ in power while Scotland declines.
Logic and reality fail meets cognitive dissonance, thoughts and prayers technodup said:
t's not independence if you're running to England for all the bits you can't do yourself. It's the very opposite of independence ffs. And whilst the DVLA might not require control, the same cannot be said for the currency you plan to share. Not to mention the fact that if the UK knows you need these various services (which it would), your negotiating hand is weak af.
Like the referendum, last night was a UK vote. Only one one winner. Nobody in yellow is going to sit on the government side.
Not very Brexity, not taking advantage of the global market TBFLike the referendum, last night was a UK vote. Only one one winner. Nobody in yellow is going to sit on the government side.
Ignoring your own contradictions in your own post, currency pegging suits many other independent countries allied to being only a short term measure
At the end of the day, Scotland and England as a whole appear to be diverging on sociopolitical lines, the Union's challenge is to show how it can cope with this phenomenon, spouting shade, issuing threats, traducing democracy and de-railing devolution won't cut the mustard and is self defeating
Strocky said:
the Union's challenge is to show how it can cope with this phenomenon,
No, you've got it round the wrong way. The union is fine with the status quo thanks very much, it's your side that needs to prove it's case. It failed miserably last time and nobody can see any difference now...Your man Wings knows it's now become harder than ever to get independence. I might think he's a tool, but he's not a fool.
Strocky said:
Leithen said:
We're back to all the same issues discussed ad infinitum over the last eight volumes of this thread.
There's no silver bullet, no hidden wealth, no easy answers to the obvious issues. This matters not a jot to some, which is fine, but there needs to be some brutal honesty that nothing has changed.
Agree with you until the end, but come on nothing has changed since 2014? Really?There's no silver bullet, no hidden wealth, no easy answers to the obvious issues. This matters not a jot to some, which is fine, but there needs to be some brutal honesty that nothing has changed.
And TBF a fair few infinitum's are based on easily shot down lazy tropes repeated by the mainstream media on a loop
I'm not referring to reasons to invalidate the once in a generation promise. You can run around in circles, shouting to anyone who might care to listen how unfair it is to not be allowed another referenda. But all you would be doing is avoiding the elephant sat in the middle of the room.
Nothing. Has. Changed.
The reality of an independent Scotland is exactly the same. The same s
tty reality that the majority don't want. You might wish to ignore the hard analysis of the austerity, the poverty, the debt that would ensue. Thankfully the majority are not prepared to suffer such unnecessary hardship on the weak promise of some Nationalist Utopia, decades away.Nothing. Has. Changed.
Strocky said:
simoid said:
The SNP support is in decline since the referendum. After the bounce in 2015, peak SNP of almost 50% votes and nearly every seat in Scotland, they’re back down to 45%. And that’s with nasty Tories and Brexit. Ship sailed for independence and all that remains is sore losers keeping the ‘experts in winning large minorities’ in power while Scotland declines.
Logic and reality fail meets cognitive dissonance, thoughts and prayers 2015 high point, fell in 2017, but higher again now. Support for SNP is lower than the election after the indyref in 2015.
You’re entitled to your opinion but not your facts, as they say.
simoid said:
Strocky said:
You been asleep since 2010?
Ah yes - if in doubt fall back to nasty Tory austerity. This is why independence will never happen. Total inability of nationalists to think about the future with realism.Leithen said:
The austerity a post independence Scotland would need to face, would be leagues worse than anything experienced after the 2008 financial crisis. If you don't believe this, do some critical reading on the subject.
Austerity or to give it's full title, welfare & service cuts & infrastructure stimulus blockageHowever your reality experience vs prophecy is a potent argument especially given the the realities of the 2017 Tory Manifesto and 2019 projections
IFS said:
When we looked at the manifestos in 2017 we said “the Conservatives would preside over yet more spending cuts” and that their manifesto would mean “another parliament of austerity”. That’s what their 2017 manifesto said, but it is not what has happened. Current public service spending is due to be around £27 billion higher next year than implied by their 2017 manifesto. That’s closer to the 2017 Labour pledge than to the Conservatives’ own manifesto"
Current government policy is that day-to-day public service spending should increase by £34 billion, or almost 10%, between 2019-20 and 2023-24. That in itself is a big change. Manifesto promises are in addition to that
How are the Cons going to fund the above without increasing taxes or printing magic money??Current government policy is that day-to-day public service spending should increase by £34 billion, or almost 10%, between 2019-20 and 2023-24. That in itself is a big change. Manifesto promises are in addition to that
Strocky said:
At the end of the day, Scotland and England as a whole appear to be diverging on sociopolitical lines
Political maybe yes, but Scotland has always diverged from England, haven't we always been Tory light and Labour heavy ?Any evidence that the cultural and social ties that binds Scotland to England/Wales is waning ?
I detect a not unsurprising weariness and irritation from the English with the SNP whinging about not having enough powers to fix things and when they get the powers they don't use them, also they are tired of the Sturgeon, she is a broken record these days
I think the English have to congratulated .for their patience over the last few years, a bunch of useless, subsidised ungovernable
tossbags over the Irish sea, now a bunch of moaning tossbags north of Carlisle.
Who'd be an English taxpayer ?
Cantaloupe said:
Strocky said:
At the end of the day, Scotland and England as a whole appear to be diverging on sociopolitical lines
Political maybe yes, but Scotland has always diverged from England, haven't we always been Tory light and Labour heavy ?Any evidence that the cultural and social ties that binds Scotland to England/Wales is waning ?
I detect a not unsurprising weariness and irritation from the English with the SNP whinging about not having enough powers to fix things and when they get the powers they don't use them, also they are tired of the Sturgeon, she is a broken record these days
I think the English have to congratulated .for their patience over the last few years, a bunch of useless, subsidised ungovernable
tossbags over the Irish sea, now a bunch of moaning tossbags north of Carlisle.
Who'd be an English taxpayer ?
It's to be celebrated not mourned, going forward all the countries involved (unshackled) can plot their own course in the big bad world
Strocky said:
Cantaloupe said:
Strocky said:
At the end of the day, Scotland and England as a whole appear to be diverging on sociopolitical lines
Political maybe yes, but Scotland has always diverged from England, haven't we always been Tory light and Labour heavy ?Any evidence that the cultural and social ties that binds Scotland to England/Wales is waning ?
I detect a not unsurprising weariness and irritation from the English with the SNP whinging about not having enough powers to fix things and when they get the powers they don't use them, also they are tired of the Sturgeon, she is a broken record these days
I think the English have to congratulated .for their patience over the last few years, a bunch of useless, subsidised ungovernable
tossbags over the Irish sea, now a bunch of moaning tossbags north of Carlisle.
Who'd be an English taxpayer ?
It's to be celebrated not mourned, going forward all the countries involved (unshackled) can plot their own course in the big bad world
Needs a Scottish university to do a proper model of what independence would look like for a starters .. make a documentary
and broadcast it on all the tv channels at the same time ..
powerstroke said:
Sorry I think you will find the problem is Devolution and the SNP having a really bad dose of doctors receptionist syndrome,
Needs a Scottish university to do a proper model of what independence would look like for a starters .. make a documentary
and broadcast it on all the tv channels at the same time ..
Not sure what your first line means, can you expand beyond free styling?Needs a Scottish university to do a proper model of what independence would look like for a starters .. make a documentary
and broadcast it on all the tv channels at the same time ..
Your second line basically holds your hypothetical to a higher/different standard than the current setup, why?
NRS said:
Murph7355 said:
I really don't understand the mentality of the Scots where the SNP are concerned.
It’s pretty simple. A bunch are for independence, so vote SNP. Some are pro-union, but know there needs to be a referendum to go independent. Therefore they are ok to vote SNP as it would be stopped at a referendum again (most likely). Whereas if you don’t trust Boris there is not much you can do to stop him. So vote for the party that you can block the major issue you disagree on when the referendum is called.Team Boris, rightly as it appears, calculated that he needed to go for the hard leave vote with all of his No Deal! bluster. This basically meant sacrificing gains in Scotland. Again, Scottish voters didn't change, the party left them.
Lib Dems gained in vote share, but their policy on Brexit basically mirrored No Deal and seemed too cynical IMO to grab more pragmatic/principled remainers.
So that leaves the SNP who say they want a second indy referendum, which you can vote No in, and haven't really changed at all. Their westminster politicians make no decisions which affect Scotland, and they can insist on remaining all they want but can't enforce it so why not send them south given the above parties?
That's my take, anyway. 2021 will show us what Scotland really thinks, though I think they'll miss Ruth Davison.
glazbagun said:
I think it's worth noting that very few in the UK wanted Momentum- they didn't move, Labour left them.
Team Boris, rightly as it appears, calculated that he needed to go for the hard leave vote with all of his No Deal! bluster. This basically meant sacrificing gains in Scotland. Again, Scottish voters didn't change, the party left them.
Lib Dems gained in vote share, but their policy on Brexit basically mirrored No Deal and seemed too cynical IMO to grab more pragmatic/principled remainers.
So that leaves the SNP who say they want a second indy referendum, which you can vote No in, and haven't really changed at all. Their westminster politicians make no decisions which affect Scotland, and they can insist on remaining all they want but can't enforce it so why not send them south given the above parties?
That's my take, anyway. 2021 will show us what Scotland really thinks, though I think they'll miss Ruth Davison.
It's deja vu all over again, the SNP have a massive 48 of Scotland's 59 MPs, but only 45% of Scotland's populace [who can be arsed to vote ] want separation, the Sturgeon demands indyref 2 but she kens fine well they will lose , and Scotland's national football and rugby teams are a still a monumental friggin' embarrassment. Team Boris, rightly as it appears, calculated that he needed to go for the hard leave vote with all of his No Deal! bluster. This basically meant sacrificing gains in Scotland. Again, Scottish voters didn't change, the party left them.
Lib Dems gained in vote share, but their policy on Brexit basically mirrored No Deal and seemed too cynical IMO to grab more pragmatic/principled remainers.
So that leaves the SNP who say they want a second indy referendum, which you can vote No in, and haven't really changed at all. Their westminster politicians make no decisions which affect Scotland, and they can insist on remaining all they want but can't enforce it so why not send them south given the above parties?
That's my take, anyway. 2021 will show us what Scotland really thinks, though I think they'll miss Ruth Davison.
Business as usual then till the next election ?
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