Term-time holiday dad loses court battle

[Steve Campbell]

ClaphamGT3 said:

But why did you need to take him out of school? I have achieved very much the same with my daughters without them ever missing school to do so

It's a good question & one my wife and I considered long and hard. We were simply unwilling to pay the exorbitant prices the ski companies charge for half term or easter (which we now are doing ... as I consider taking him out of school at secondary level may have a potential impact). For the equivalent holiday, we are talking 3 figure sums difference in price. It wasn't an affordability thing, I'm lucky enough to say we could have afforded it, but the very principal of paying so much more for the same holiday a week apart is just too much for us (we usually took him out the week before half term, when half of the week was playing games anyway at junior school :-))

Oh and Ari....partially correct....apart from the "oh so special child" & "rules don't apply to him". This has got nothing to do with him so piling in with another insult really helps the argument. Not. I just added some context that we didn't just do this on a whim with no forethought on impact or outcome. The rules did apply to me, and I was willing to pay the consequences of the fine weighed against the value of the holiday. Do the crime, do the time etc.

This is about me, and not playing the game of the travel agents by refusing to pay £££ for the sake of 1 week out of school at a time in my sons schooling where the time off made zero impact as previously said. Sure, I could have done those holidays in holiday time, and today I would be in the order of £10k worse off......or I could have spent the same money as I did for the holidays and downgraded the resort / accommodation etc to offset the price difference. Sorry, I haven't worked my butt off for nigh on 30 years to do that. I'll happily sit with the selfish tag with my £10k in the bank & not in the estate agents pockets. Am I a minority here ?

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:51

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:57

[surveyor]

Steve Campbell said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

But why did you need to take him out of school? I have achieved very much the same with my daughters without them ever missing school to do so

It's a good question & one my wife and I considered long and hard. We were simply unwilling to pay the exorbitant prices the ski companies charge for half term or easter (which we now are doing ... as I consider taking him out of school at secondary level may have a potential impact). For the equivalent holiday, we are talking 3 figure sums difference in price. It wasn't an affordability thing, I'm lucky enough to say we could have afforded it, but the very principal of paying so much more for the same holiday a week apart is just too much for us (we usually took him out the week before half term, when half of the week was playing games anyway at junior school :-))

Oh and Ari....correct....apart from the "oh so special child". This has got nothing to do with him so piling in with another insult really helps the argument. Not. I just added some context that we didn't just do this on a whim with no forethought on impact or outcome. This is about me, and not playing the game of the travel agents by refusing to pay £££ for the sake of 1 week out of school at a time in my sons schooling where the time off made zero impact as previously said. Sure, I could have done those holidays in holiday time, and today I would be in the order of £10k worse off......or I could have spent the same money as I did for the holidays and downgraded the resort / accommodation etc to offset the price difference. Sorry, I haven't worked my butt off for nigh on 30 years to do that. I'll happily sit with the selfish tag with my £10k in the bank & not in the estate agents pockets. Am I a minority here ?

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:51

I'm with you Steve.

Not everyone here is a multi-million pound Director

Some people don't even get to choose when they have time off.....

[TIGA84]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Steve Campbell said:

wsurfa said:

Kermit power said:

Steve Campbell said:

Interesting catching up on this thread. I'm all for the rules.....but I also believe parents have the right to parent as they see fit... In primary school, I took my son out of school for holidays every year in Key Stage 1, about half of Key stage 2.

How exactly do you reconcile your right to "parent as you see fit" by buggering off skiing in term time with the right of others to parent as they see fit by having their kids educated by a teacher who isn't having to slow down and take time out to bring the kids of selfish fkers up to speed when they get back from swanning around in the Alps whilst everyone else's kids have been in school learning?

Maybe he was helping the other thick kids catch up with his bright kid, or the kids of the 'selfish fkers' who don't read with their kids every day.......

As noted above, the impact of removing my kid from school for 1 week per year was precisely zero for both my kid and the rest of the class. He was top of his class in practically every subject, won the academic prize and to add to this was the best sportsman in his year (he is also well liked with lots of friends and not an annoying t**t like this makes him sound :-)). Most of his time in core lessons like maths & English he was ahead of the class doing extended work given by the teacher anyway. He passed the local 11+ with flying colours (without us sending him to a tutor) and is doing very well at a local grammar school. In addition, he now has a passion for skiing, has enjoyed 8 years experiencing the beauty of the mountains & id do it all the same next time.

Taking your children out of school isn't for everyone I admit, as some would struggle and it may be detrimental to them and potentially others (I've yet to see any evidence of this in Key Stage 1 & 2).....also my child actually had a better overall attendance record than many in his class as he was hardly ever ill.

So kermit power, it's important to understand the context and background before you launch into a typical keyboard warrior tirade.

But why did you need to take him out of school?

I have achieved very much the same with my daughters without them ever missing school to do so

Surely the answer is very simple.

You have more money than he does.

[Rovinghawk]

Steve Campbell said:

We were simply unwilling to pay the exorbitant prices

So bottom line is that it's all about the money.

[surveyor]

Rovinghawk said:

Steve Campbell said:

We were simply unwilling to pay the exorbitant prices

So bottom line is that it's all about the money.

It's not all about the money. But some people tend to think the danger of the kids being away for a week is grossly exaggerated.

[Steve Campbell]

Rovinghawk said:

So bottom line is that it's all about the money.

The primary factor was my unwillingness to pay £££ for a holiday, which led to a sensible and adult conversation with my wife about the potential impact on schooling when my son was aged 4-10. So yes it's about money, but not without weighing up the consequences....hence not ALL about the money. Education, in my view, is extremely important. If we thought what we did would make the slightest difference to that education, we may have made a different decision. That is why we won't be taking him out of school in secondary & will, unfortunately, have to pay the stupid prices, like we just did in the Easter break.

[Ari]

Steve Campbell said:

If we thought what we did would make the slightest difference to that education, we may have made a different decision. That is why we won't be taking him out of school in secondary & will, unfortunately, have to pay the stupid prices, like we just did in the Easter break.

You just don't get it do you? Can you really not follow the fairly simple thought process that if every parent took their child out of school for random weeks through term time so they could have a lovely holiday for a few quid less and sod everyone else, it would be chaos?

You say 'oh I paid the fine' as though that somehow excuses your selfishness. In your own words, it's not even like you couldn't afford it.

Oh well, welcome to memememe 21st century Britain I guess.

[surveyor]

There are a lot of sanctimonious preachers in NPE. It is quite extraordinary.

[Efbe]

Ari said:

Steve Campbell said:

If we thought what we did would make the slightest difference to that education, we may have made a different decision. That is why we won't be taking him out of school in secondary & will, unfortunately, have to pay the stupid prices, like we just did in the Easter break.

You just don't get it do you? Can you really not follow the fairly simple thought process that if every parent took their child out of school for random weeks through term time so they could have a lovely holiday for a few quid less and sod everyone else, it would be chaos?

You say 'oh I paid the fine' as though that somehow excuses your selfishness. In your own words, it's not even like you couldn't afford it.

Oh well, welcome to memememe 21st century Britain I guess.

but that wasn't what was happening before these fines were imposed was it?

In fact nothing has changed. absenteeism pre and post this implementation for family holidays has remained the same.

[Steve Campbell]

Ari said:

You just don't get it do you? Can you really not follow the fairly simple thought process that if every parent took their child out of school for random weeks through term time so they could have a lovely holiday for a few quid less and sod everyone else, it would be chaos?
You say 'oh I paid the fine' as though that somehow excuses your selfishness. In your own words, it's not even like you couldn't afford it.
Oh well, welcome to memememe 21st century Britain I guess.

I do get it, and would be willing to have an adult conversation with members of this forum on the subject, should they wish to engage in adult debate, rather than mud slinging. Indeed it would be chaos in theory, but I've yet to hear a sensible argument based on facts that what we did was detrimental to either my family or others.

Being able to "afford it" and being willing to pay ridiculous prices are 2 separate things. Perhaps I can afford it as I take sensible decisions on how I spend my money.

[Kermit power]

Steve Campbell said:

wsurfa said:

Kermit power said:

Steve Campbell said:

Interesting catching up on this thread. I'm all for the rules.....but I also believe parents have the right to parent as they see fit... In primary school, I took my son out of school for holidays every year in Key Stage 1, about half of Key stage 2.

How exactly do you reconcile your right to "parent as you see fit" by buggering off skiing in term time with the right of others to parent as they see fit by having their kids educated by a teacher who isn't having to slow down and take time out to bring the kids of selfish fkers up to speed when they get back from swanning around in the Alps whilst everyone else's kids have been in school learning?

Maybe he was helping the other thick kids catch up with his bright kid, or the kids of the 'selfish fkers' who don't read with their kids every day.......

As noted above, the impact of removing my kid from school for 1 week per year was precisely zero for both my kid and the rest of the class. He was top of his class in practically every subject, won the academic prize and to add to this was the best sportsman in his year (he is also well liked with lots of friends and not an annoying t**t like this makes him sound :-)). Most of his time in core lessons like maths & English he was ahead of the class doing extended work given by the teacher anyway. He passed the local 11+ with flying colours (without us sending him to a tutor) and is doing very well at a local grammar school. In addition, he now has a passion for skiing, has enjoyed 8 years experiencing the beauty of the mountains & id do it all the same next time.

Taking your children out of school isn't for everyone I admit, as some would struggle and it may be detrimental to them and potentially others (I've yet to see any evidence of this in Key Stage 1 & 2).....also my child actually had a better overall attendance record than many in his class as he was hardly ever ill.

So kermit power, it's important to understand the context and background before you launch into a typical keyboard warrior tirade.

OK, so we need context and background.

Do you think your oh-so-perfect little darling told any of his friends he was going skiing, or did he tell them all he was going for a medical procedure or something similarly undesirable?

If he told them he was going skiing, how many of those kids then went home and put pressure on their parents to go skiing as well, just because your perfect one was going?

How many of those parents gave in and took their kids out of school for a week or two? How many of those kids had to sap the teacher's time to get back up to speed when they got back?

Just because you're comfortable in your belief that your little genius didn't suffer or directly impact on other kids by his absence doesn't mean you have any idea whether or not it indirectly impacted on any of his classmates, or make your actions any less selfish.

[WinstonWolf]

Ari said:

Steve Campbell said:

If we thought what we did would make the slightest difference to that education, we may have made a different decision. That is why we won't be taking him out of school in secondary & will, unfortunately, have to pay the stupid prices, like we just did in the Easter break.

You just don't get it do you? Can you really not follow the fairly simple thought process that if every parent took their child out of school for random weeks through term time so they could have a lovely holiday for a few quid less and sod everyone else, it would be chaos?

You say 'oh I paid the fine' as though that somehow excuses your selfishness. In your own words, it's not even like you couldn't afford it.

Oh well, welcome to memememe 21st century Britain I guess.

The 'fine' is considerably less than the current holiday ripoff pricing you get during term time.

[Kermit power]

Steve Campbell said:

This is about me, and not playing the game of the travel agents by refusing to pay £££ for the sake of 1 week out of school at a time in my sons schooling where the time off made zero impact as previously said. Sure, I could have done those holidays in holiday time, and today I would be in the order of £10k worse off......or I could have spent the same money as I did for the holidays and downgraded the resort / accommodation etc to offset the price difference. Sorry, I haven't worked my butt off for nigh on 30 years to do that. I'll happily sit with the selfish tag with my £10k in the bank & not in the estate agents pockets. Am I a minority here ?

I don't know. Let's find out.

[mwstewart]

I have zero problem with it and when we have children we will occasionally take them out for holidays.

[sugerbear]

five weeks summer holidays and five days flexi for those with good attendance who are hitting their required marks (maybe not applying when 14 thru 16).

The impact of others in the classroom might be improved if there were one or two people less and most teachers know the syllabus they are teaching.

There are plenty of sick days lost but those dont appear to be having an impact, just those that take their holiday abroad. Funny that.

[ClaphamGT3]

Steve Campbell said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

But why did you need to take him out of school? I have achieved very much the same with my daughters without them ever missing school to do so

It's a good question & one my wife and I considered long and hard. We were simply unwilling to pay the exorbitant prices the ski companies charge for half term or easter (which we now are doing ... as I consider taking him out of school at secondary level may have a potential impact). For the equivalent holiday, we are talking 3 figure sums difference in price. It wasn't an affordability thing, I'm lucky enough to say we could have afforded it, but the very principal of paying so much more for the same holiday a week apart is just too much for us (we usually took him out the week before half term, when half of the week was playing games anyway at junior school :-))

Oh and Ari....partially correct....apart from the "oh so special child" & "rules don't apply to him". This has got nothing to do with him so piling in with another insult really helps the argument. Not. I just added some context that we didn't just do this on a whim with no forethought on impact or outcome. The rules did apply to me, and I was willing to pay the consequences of the fine weighed against the value of the holiday. Do the crime, do the time etc.

This is about me, and not playing the game of the travel agents by refusing to pay £££ for the sake of 1 week out of school at a time in my sons schooling where the time off made zero impact as previously said. Sure, I could have done those holidays in holiday time, and today I would be in the order of £10k worse off......or I could have spent the same money as I did for the holidays and downgraded the resort / accommodation etc to offset the price difference. Sorry, I haven't worked my butt off for nigh on 30 years to do that. I'll happily sit with the selfish tag with my £10k in the bank & not in the estate agents pockets. Am I a minority here ?

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:51

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:57

Only time will tell what the long term impact is.

I expect the biggest risk that you personally have taken - and I have seen this play out more than once, including with my own nephew - is that, when he starts to cock about at secondary school and prioritise sport/social life/girls over buckling down and working hard to get good grades, you have lost all moral authority to impress on him the need for and value of hard work.

I hope I'm wrong but it is possible that you may well find those few weeks out of school thrown back in your face in future

[surveyor]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Steve Campbell said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

But why did you need to take him out of school? I have achieved very much the same with my daughters without them ever missing school to do so

It's a good question & one my wife and I considered long and hard. We were simply unwilling to pay the exorbitant prices the ski companies charge for half term or easter (which we now are doing ... as I consider taking him out of school at secondary level may have a potential impact). For the equivalent holiday, we are talking 3 figure sums difference in price. It wasn't an affordability thing, I'm lucky enough to say we could have afforded it, but the very principal of paying so much more for the same holiday a week apart is just too much for us (we usually took him out the week before half term, when half of the week was playing games anyway at junior school :-))

Oh and Ari....partially correct....apart from the "oh so special child" & "rules don't apply to him". This has got nothing to do with him so piling in with another insult really helps the argument. Not. I just added some context that we didn't just do this on a whim with no forethought on impact or outcome. The rules did apply to me, and I was willing to pay the consequences of the fine weighed against the value of the holiday. Do the crime, do the time etc.

This is about me, and not playing the game of the travel agents by refusing to pay £££ for the sake of 1 week out of school at a time in my sons schooling where the time off made zero impact as previously said. Sure, I could have done those holidays in holiday time, and today I would be in the order of £10k worse off......or I could have spent the same money as I did for the holidays and downgraded the resort / accommodation etc to offset the price difference. Sorry, I haven't worked my butt off for nigh on 30 years to do that. I'll happily sit with the selfish tag with my £10k in the bank & not in the estate agents pockets. Am I a minority here ?

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:51

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:57

Only time will tell what the long term impact is.

I expect the biggest risk that you personally have taken - and I have seen this play out more than once, including with my own nephew - is that, when he starts to cock about at secondary school and prioritise sport/social life/girls over buckling down and working hard to get good grades, you have lost all moral authority to impress on him the need for and value of hard work.

I hope I'm wrong but it is possible that you may well find those few weeks out of school thrown back in your face in future

[ATG]

Steve Campbell said:

I do get it, and would be willing to have an adult conversation with members of this forum on the subject, should they wish to engage in adult debate, rather than mud slinging.

You've been asked some entirely reasonable questions.

Steve Campbell said:

Indeed it would be chaos in theory, but I've yet to hear a sensible argument based on facts that what we did was detrimental to either my family or others.

I'm afraid that you are illustrating yet again that you just don't get it.

The only reason your behaviour didn't do much harm is because everyone else chose not to take their kids out of school mid-term like you did. Everyone else stuck to the rules for the greater good , you didn't. It may sound harsh, but that is pretty much the dictionary definition of selfish behaviour.

[WinstonWolf]

surveyor said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Steve Campbell said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

But why did you need to take him out of school? I have achieved very much the same with my daughters without them ever missing school to do so

It's a good question & one my wife and I considered long and hard. We were simply unwilling to pay the exorbitant prices the ski companies charge for half term or easter (which we now are doing ... as I consider taking him out of school at secondary level may have a potential impact). For the equivalent holiday, we are talking 3 figure sums difference in price. It wasn't an affordability thing, I'm lucky enough to say we could have afforded it, but the very principal of paying so much more for the same holiday a week apart is just too much for us (we usually took him out the week before half term, when half of the week was playing games anyway at junior school :-))

Oh and Ari....partially correct....apart from the "oh so special child" & "rules don't apply to him". This has got nothing to do with him so piling in with another insult really helps the argument. Not. I just added some context that we didn't just do this on a whim with no forethought on impact or outcome. The rules did apply to me, and I was willing to pay the consequences of the fine weighed against the value of the holiday. Do the crime, do the time etc.

This is about me, and not playing the game of the travel agents by refusing to pay £££ for the sake of 1 week out of school at a time in my sons schooling where the time off made zero impact as previously said. Sure, I could have done those holidays in holiday time, and today I would be in the order of £10k worse off......or I could have spent the same money as I did for the holidays and downgraded the resort / accommodation etc to offset the price difference. Sorry, I haven't worked my butt off for nigh on 30 years to do that. I'll happily sit with the selfish tag with my £10k in the bank & not in the estate agents pockets. Am I a minority here ?

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:51

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 18th April 12:57

Only time will tell what the long term impact is.

I expect the biggest risk that you personally have taken - and I have seen this play out more than once, including with my own nephew - is that, when he starts to cock about at secondary school and prioritise sport/social life/girls over buckling down and working hard to get good grades, you have lost all moral authority to impress on him the need for and value of hard work.

I hope I'm wrong but it is possible that you may well find those few weeks out of school thrown back in your face in future

That's an all time high even for PH

[Ari]

ATG said:

I'm afraid that you are illustrating yet again that you just don't get it.

The only reason your behaviour didn't do much harm is because everyone else chose not to take their kids out of school mid-term like you did. Everyone else stuck to the rules for the greater good , you didn't. It may sound harsh, but that is pretty much the dictionary definition of selfish behaviour.

Precisely this!

The level of selfish here is off the scale. 'I took my kid out, all the other parents didn't, so no harm done and that makes it okay as far as I'm concerned.'.

Absolutely amazing.