Term-time holiday dad loses court battle
Discussion
TTwiggy said:
768 said:
Bad rule, bad decision.
Good rule, good decision. It's a school - a place where kids are meant to learn about boundaries and respect for authority. Something the father should have considered.768 said:
Edwin Strohacker said:
768 said:
It's supposed to be a place of education where kids are meant to learn, evaluate and conclude for themselves, not secede to the dogma of an authority that earns no respect.
By dogma of an authority, you mean law of the land established 74 years ago?
superkartracer said:
hman said:
Redlake27 said:
I agree that travel broadens horizons and aids education, but parents have 12 weeks a year to choose from that don't cause disruption to academic planning.
3/10 - must try harder...My kids now know what life and culture is like for Australians by meeting and asking questions of the Australian people that they met, they gained an understanding of the history of Australia, saw how farms and industry differs to ours in the UK and saw a diverse range of animals and wildlife.
To use your analogy, it would be wholly pointless to go anywhere in the world for cultural reasons as one would never been able to spend enough time there for it to be worthwhile!
RemyMartin81D said:
johnfm said:
RemyMartin81D said:
Good decision.
Dad is typical entitled prick. Why should the rules not apply for him, don't like paying too much for holidays? Well boo hoo. Seriously are all parents deranged as to not realise about school holidays and what having kids means you have to accept your life will change?
You sound like a typically aggressive, left wing class warrior.Dad is typical entitled prick. Why should the rules not apply for him, don't like paying too much for holidays? Well boo hoo. Seriously are all parents deranged as to not realise about school holidays and what having kids means you have to accept your life will change?
johnfm said:
RemyMartin81D said:
johnfm said:
RemyMartin81D said:
Good decision.
Dad is typical entitled prick. Why should the rules not apply for him, don't like paying too much for holidays? Well boo hoo. Seriously are all parents deranged as to not realise about school holidays and what having kids means you have to accept your life will change?
You sound like a typically aggressive, left wing class warrior.Dad is typical entitled prick. Why should the rules not apply for him, don't like paying too much for holidays? Well boo hoo. Seriously are all parents deranged as to not realise about school holidays and what having kids means you have to accept your life will change?
Murph7355 said:
Kids are a choice and when you make that choice you should be accepting compromises. If you cannot do that, you shouldn't be having kids.
My thoughts exactly.My wife is a teacher and for the last 8 years we've been together, we've only been able to go away on holiday during school holiday time, so we know no different. Some holidays are priced out of our reach, in which case we simply save harder/longer, or go without. If/when we have children, the same ethos will be adopted.
Edited by Cybertronian on Thursday 6th April 13:25
PurpleMoonlight said:
Redlake27 said:
I think parents who are complaining about pricing should also go back to school for a GCSE Economics lesson on supply and demand.
You might call it that, I would call it profiteering.The underlying costs of the business do not increase during school holiday periods, so neither should the cost to the consumer.
There are some serious up their own arse w
kers on ph. Fuds trying to act more middle class than they are.
Why is it we never read posts like.
Tbh, I can see why he done it, I have too myself or thought about it, the families had a bad year, skint, or we just needed to get away and it suited. I wouldn't do it every year. He probably should have paid the fine or at least asked the schools permission. Failing that, sick note. He has taken it too far.
This is the fking answer everyone should have.
Not the usual pish of "this is the kinda stuff you should think about when having kids", really that was my first thought pished as my ex ripped the condom off mid flight.
or
It sets and example that the child has to work hard and good morals, thats the problem now with the world. What...Really, like we all wouldnt look a week or two before the end of term and go fk me that saves 50%, hmmmm, do i save a load of cash or send wee jimmy to school to play games and be in the end of term show. This is so important one week of school it cannot be changed due to I dont know, the death of a family member that year and it being tough on the family, or struggling for years and just needing that once in a lifetime holiday at the right age....I could go on.
kers on ph. Fuds trying to act more middle class than they are.Why is it we never read posts like.
Tbh, I can see why he done it, I have too myself or thought about it, the families had a bad year, skint, or we just needed to get away and it suited. I wouldn't do it every year. He probably should have paid the fine or at least asked the schools permission. Failing that, sick note. He has taken it too far.
This is the f
king answer everyone should have. Not the usual pish of "this is the kinda stuff you should think about when having kids", really that was my first thought pished as my ex ripped the condom off mid flight.
or
It sets and example that the child has to work hard and good morals, thats the problem now with the world. What...Really, like we all wouldnt look a week or two before the end of term and go f
k me that saves 50%, hmmmm, do i save a load of cash or send wee jimmy to school to play games and be in the end of term show. This is so important one week of school it cannot be changed due to I dont know, the death of a family member that year and it being tough on the family, or struggling for years and just needing that once in a lifetime holiday at the right age....I could go on. hman said:
Here is a real example:-
I recently (February 2017) sought permission from my childrens school to take both my children to Australia for 10 days, in term time, with a plan in place on how we will keep up with any home work - permission was granted and we submitted their homework /school work on our return...the academic planning of the school was unaffected.
...
The thing is, while Heads have discretion to grant permission, they're only supposed to do so in exceptional circumstances. There's nothing in the law or guidance that talks about efforts to minimise disruption, keep up with work etc. I recently (February 2017) sought permission from my childrens school to take both my children to Australia for 10 days, in term time, with a plan in place on how we will keep up with any home work - permission was granted and we submitted their homework /school work on our return...the academic planning of the school was unaffected.
...
Unless there are truely exceptional circumstances all requests should be refused.
John145 said:
superkartracer said:
hman said:
Redlake27 said:
I agree that travel broadens horizons and aids education, but parents have 12 weeks a year to choose from that don't cause disruption to academic planning.
3/10 - must try harder...My kids now know what life and culture is like for Australians by meeting and asking questions of the Australian people that they met, they gained an understanding of the history of Australia, saw how farms and industry differs to ours in the UK and saw a diverse range of animals and wildlife.
To use your analogy, it would be wholly pointless to go anywhere in the world for cultural reasons as one would never been able to spend enough time there for it to be worthwhile!
RemyMartin81D said:
Good decision.
Dad is typical entitled prick. Why should the rules not apply for him, don't like paying too much for holidays? Well boo hoo. Seriously are all parents deranged as to not realise about school holidays and what having kids means you have to accept your life will change?
I'm with you on this one, doesn't the father own a PPI Claim company or something? Anyway, want to take your kids out of school for a jolly? Pay the fine you prick, or at least if nothing else ask bloody permission first. Rules are rules and just because you have the ability to cold call a few thousand people a week to line your pockets doesn't mean you're exempt.Dad is typical entitled prick. Why should the rules not apply for him, don't like paying too much for holidays? Well boo hoo. Seriously are all parents deranged as to not realise about school holidays and what having kids means you have to accept your life will change?
Fundamentally I have no problem with him taking his (more important than anyone else) offspring to Disneyland, the fact he believed he was rich enough for the rules that everyone else abide by to not apply to him makes him a knob in my eyes.
Wonder what his costs will be
I don't think the Court had any choice but to make that decision - the chap was a fool for pushing it. But it DOES put more power in Schools' hands to play hardball now... 
Exactly the point I was going to make - the cost of family-friendly holidays skyrockets, whether UK or overseas - Centre Parcs are utter thieves.
Equally, a colleague here has saved >£800 on a 1-week break for her family to the Med because their school has an Inset Day on the Monday after half-term. 1 day's difference in outbound / inbound days makes £800 difference. Out of interest we looked at the week after, and that was another £500-600 cheaper again...so nearly a 2-to-1 difference on the cost in-term vs in-holidays!
Supply/Demand - yes, agreed, but it's STILL profiteering, because the travel operators know they've a captive audience.
They do if you request and justify within a reasonable timescale. The essential bit is parents work with the schools, not challenge because they feel the rule is pants! Fair enough, I've requested twice, at an infants and a juniors school and been given a form to fill in but told it won't get authorised....and herein lies the problem, and the reason it gets so emotive - it's not just financial, it's inconsistent - it's entirely down to the school and who's running it / how much of a jobsworth they want to be / how desperate they are to improve their stats at the expense of working with parents.
Children are bloody expensive things at the best of times...and in the current highly-stressed society / work-environment we find ourselves in, the "family holiday" is more important than ever to parents. So to see the likes of CentreParcs and the high-street travel agents/charter airlines taking the mickey as much as they are, whilst the Dep't of Education whistles in the background and doesn't care, REALLY stings.
(And I'm in the fortunate position I can still afford to pay for an overseas holiday, albeit even outside of the main Summer hols we're paying ~40-50% more, like-for-like and FX-adjusted)
tankplanker said:
Redlake27 said:
I've looked at two very different holidays this year. One was renting a 2 bed cottage in the Lake District. It was £600pw in term time and £800pw in the Summer holidays. Another was a long weekend (3 nights) in a 4 star hotel Barcelona, with flights. £350 per person in term time and £480 per person in Summer holidays.
Hardly an extortionate difference.
It does depend on where you are going as well, Centre Parcs was £359 for a 3 bed villa for 4 nights, yet ~£1400 for the same Villa over the Easter bank holiday weekend, which is only 3 nights. Hardly an extortionate difference.
Equally, a colleague here has saved >£800 on a 1-week break for her family to the Med because their school has an Inset Day on the Monday after half-term. 1 day's difference in outbound / inbound days makes £800 difference. Out of interest we looked at the week after, and that was another £500-600 cheaper again...so nearly a 2-to-1 difference on the cost in-term vs in-holidays!
Supply/Demand - yes, agreed, but it's STILL profiteering, because the travel operators know they've a captive audience.
tankplanker said:
I do think that authorised holidays should be allowed if the student has a good attendance record and is making above average academic progress. However I know our school banned all parents from term time holidays because of poor attendance of a few. The school has to report on attendance at a class, year and whole school basis. This means a few children with terrible attendance (less than 50%) can drag down an entire school's average attendance so they all suffer.
Quite likely.Chester draws said:
mattyn1 said:
pmanson said:
Chester draws said:
Schools (IME) can not and will not authorise holidays within term time.
My Son's school has just done exactly that for us for a week in July. We wrote and explained the circumstances and they approved it the same day. Children are bloody expensive things at the best of times...and in the current highly-stressed society / work-environment we find ourselves in, the "family holiday" is more important than ever to parents. So to see the likes of CentreParcs and the high-street travel agents/charter airlines taking the mickey as much as they are, whilst the Dep't of Education whistles in the background and doesn't care, REALLY stings.
(And I'm in the fortunate position I can still afford to pay for an overseas holiday, albeit even outside of the main Summer hols we're paying ~40-50% more, like-for-like and FX-adjusted)
Neonblau said:
johnfm said:
No need. You sound like a typically aggressive, left wing class warrior. Whether you self identify as one or not is irrelevant. The image you project by referring to people as a "typical entitled prick" is exactly as I have suggested.
Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.It is hardly an hypocrisy to suggest that calling people "entitled pricks" reflects anything other than left leaning class aggression. What else could one infer from the use of "entitled" as an insult?
johnfm said:
Neonblau said:
johnfm said:
No need. You sound like a typically aggressive, left wing class warrior. Whether you self identify as one or not is irrelevant. The image you project by referring to people as a "typical entitled prick" is exactly as I have suggested.
Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.It is hardly an hypocrisy to suggest that calling people "entitled pricks" reflects anything other than left leaning class aggression. What else could one infer from the use of "entitled" as an insult?
As most parents know (i.e not many in this thread it seems) if you ask for permission to take your kids out of school for a week it'll almost certainly be denied - hence if you ignore their denial and take them out of school anyway - it's unauthorised.
We used to just used to call them in sick when my two were younger - it's a lot less hassle (especially if you have an IP home phone provider!) and doesn't get marked as unauthorised absence.
We used to just used to call them in sick when my two were younger - it's a lot less hassle (especially if you have an IP home phone provider!) and doesn't get marked as unauthorised absence.
BertieWooster said:
I note that the president of the Supreme Court stated that unauthorised absences have a disruptive effect. Perhaps teachers should not be allowed to strike from now on then as this would appear to be as equally disruptive.
I emailed the head at our primary school that very point when we last received a newsletter telling us how disruptive term time absences are. I didn't get a reply.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=13...
I worked in a situation where there were minimum staffing levels. (That said, the minimum levels are hardly ever met at the moment, even outside of holiday periods.)
The holidays were put on a rota and there were insufficient summer holidays (where does 12 weeks come from? It's 6 and a few days for the summer) for everyone to get a shot at it. One school holiday period I worked 17 12-hour shifts and had five days off in total. I felt I was entitled to two week's holiday with my kids.
I took my kids out of school in the two weeks before school broke up, these being my rostered annual leave days. My wife approached two of the schools for copies of the curriculum for the period and they turned out to be largely visits and more or less messing around. 'After all,' she was told. 'It's the end of the school year.'
A third was at the end of GCSEs so there were no classes.
Whether this ruling is fair or not misses the point. A blanket ban with limited exemptions, and those not classified, is poor law. All laws should be clear. It should not be left up to headmasters to make arbitrary decisions that can effect the family.
The point of schools is to educate. I can see no problems with parents being required to cover any periods the kids miss for a two week period.
The holidays were put on a rota and there were insufficient summer holidays (where does 12 weeks come from? It's 6 and a few days for the summer) for everyone to get a shot at it. One school holiday period I worked 17 12-hour shifts and had five days off in total. I felt I was entitled to two week's holiday with my kids.
I took my kids out of school in the two weeks before school broke up, these being my rostered annual leave days. My wife approached two of the schools for copies of the curriculum for the period and they turned out to be largely visits and more or less messing around. 'After all,' she was told. 'It's the end of the school year.'
A third was at the end of GCSEs so there were no classes.
Whether this ruling is fair or not misses the point. A blanket ban with limited exemptions, and those not classified, is poor law. All laws should be clear. It should not be left up to headmasters to make arbitrary decisions that can effect the family.
The point of schools is to educate. I can see no problems with parents being required to cover any periods the kids miss for a two week period.
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