Snap General Election?
Discussion
Slagathore said:
Derek Smith said:
What do you consider a weak degree? One that doesn't pay much? That would include nursing, midwifery, police work and more. Are these 'weak'. They are certainly not an investment.
One investment might be to ensure that, now we are leaving the EU and losing free movement of labour (presumably), we have a well educated workforce. That's what companies are demanding, although they seem to lack the willingness to pay for it.
As you say, all manifestos are bribes to a certain extent. What's wrong with chasing an ignored demographic, one that is lumbered with enough debts from previous generations without having to accept their own?
The current generation at uni and college are indeed different to an extent. They are certainly working harder than mine ever did.
You suggest that students were fully prepared to accept university fees. From what I've seen with regards student demonstrations, and what I've seen written, they were resentful but, and good on them, realised that they had to live with the hand they were dealt with the present government.
What destroyed the libdems was their backtracking on uni fees. There was no acceptance of massive debts there.
I've got four kids, two of whom went through uni. From what I've seen of them and their friends, their generations are grafters.
Bribes: that's what manifestos are, and have been for some years. Churchill was finally voted in when he promised an immediate end to rationing, despite the country still being in difficult financial circumstances. You remember him, voted greatest ever Briton. Yet he bribed people for his own ends.
I consider a weak degree to be one that doesn't give you options, or many of them. A lot of students are going to uni for the sake of it because they think that's what they should do. Any degree is better than no degree, but that simply isn't the case. Some people learn better with hands on work, others excel in academia. More needs to be done in terms of apprenticeships and training, rather than just saying a degree is the only way. On another discussion, someone mentioned advanced apprenticeships and degree apprenticeships.One investment might be to ensure that, now we are leaving the EU and losing free movement of labour (presumably), we have a well educated workforce. That's what companies are demanding, although they seem to lack the willingness to pay for it.
As you say, all manifestos are bribes to a certain extent. What's wrong with chasing an ignored demographic, one that is lumbered with enough debts from previous generations without having to accept their own?
The current generation at uni and college are indeed different to an extent. They are certainly working harder than mine ever did.
You suggest that students were fully prepared to accept university fees. From what I've seen with regards student demonstrations, and what I've seen written, they were resentful but, and good on them, realised that they had to live with the hand they were dealt with the present government.
What destroyed the libdems was their backtracking on uni fees. There was no acceptance of massive debts there.
I've got four kids, two of whom went through uni. From what I've seen of them and their friends, their generations are grafters.
Bribes: that's what manifestos are, and have been for some years. Churchill was finally voted in when he promised an immediate end to rationing, despite the country still being in difficult financial circumstances. You remember him, voted greatest ever Briton. Yet he bribed people for his own ends.
A degree in media studies is weak. A degree in maths or physics etc is strong.
The knock on effect of weak degrees is that when they realise they can't get a proper job, they move over to teacher training and become a teacher. OK, that's a bit harsh, but I bet if you ask new teachers whether it was always their intention to be a teacher, you'll be surprised by the answer.
Those are what we need more of, or part time degrees where people get hands on experience rather than just all the theory. That is what we need in terms of skilled workforces. Not people coming out with a degree but no industry experience. Then it takes them a few years to get a footing, when if they had done it through and apprenticehsip etc, at the end of their degree, they'll hit the ground running.
You shouldn't need a degree to be in the police. You need specific training and a stable personality. Nothing about having a degree is relevant to joining the police. I couldn't support an argument that someone with a degree in english lit would make a better policeman than someone of similar age but didn't have a degree.
The problem is a degree has now become a default qualification that people expect. It's both gained and lost value in some ways, because people complain about the quality of graduates, yet they'll only recruit them. So the really bright with proper degrees and who went to all the right schools do fine and the people with weak degrees end up in jobs that didn't need a degree to be able to do it. Just a colossal waste of time and money.
The labour we'll lose when freedom of movement goes isn't typically skilled work, is it? It's mostly cheap labour. If there are skills we need and don't have at the time, then they'll get in with Visas etc? Or the companies sponsor them. Isn't that what we do with non-EU workers at the moment?
It's wrong because it's not what is best for the country or the students themselves and it's not the best use of the money it would take to fund it. Corbyn had no intention of winning this election, he's just put in place the support for the next one. Younger people are easier to manipulate, he's intentionally targeting them for his own gain, not theirs, and whilst he's entitled to do that, it says a lot more about him and Labour than anything else.
University places are high, so the fees haven't put anyone off. Some places have such rises and demands that there isn't even enough housing for them. They might not have been happy with the cost, but it wasn't putting them off and wasn't stopping us getting the skilled workforce he desired. And as pointed out many times, the debt, if it is even paid back, is easily managed.
jjlynn27 said:
That's not the choice. Even with all the other parties put together Corbyn can't get enough seats. Not sure why you are so desperate to justify May.
Was watching her at that interview apologising to people who lost their seats. She looked like she's going to burst into tears. She has to insist on being 'strong and stable' while the opposite is true I'd say. Weak and unstable.
Not at all desperate to justify May. If she stays on as caretaker for a bit that's fine, needs to be gone within 18 months though.Was watching her at that interview apologising to people who lost their seats. She looked like she's going to burst into tears. She has to insist on being 'strong and stable' while the opposite is true I'd say. Weak and unstable.
What I do want to avoid is another election and a formal agreement with the DUP means that the Conservatives can hang on and actually govern for another few years. So whatever leader the Conservatives have they need to do a deal with them.
As I posted earlier the areas of agreement are all sensible centrist stuff so allot of the demonisation seems to be horror that some people still have a religion which they follow.
MaxSo said:
and true. Media pushing for another election but the Tories would be crazy to go for one.All they need to do is show some discipline and they could give us another few years with a functioning economy. Probable by election losses means they might not make the full five but it is certainly worth hanging on as long as possible given the alternative.
Murph7355 said:
Out of interest, what sort of Brexit is that?
As I see it the Tories know Brexit means kicking freedom of movement into touch, and ensuring British courts are supreme for the UK (I am very certain the vast majority of Leave voters want both of these). Labour were also in favour of at least the former and I think the latter too (I think they know the vast majority of Leave voters wanted them too).
The EU (not May or Davis) have said that both of these things mean no "membership" of the Single Market. Which I think is what you are referring to?
This isn't, to me, a "May/Davis style Brexit". It's facing facts as they currently stand. Going into a negotiation there is no point saying "but we really want what you are saying we cannot have" as all that does is leave you as a sitting duck around the negotiating table.
Whether something close to "membership" of the Single Market can be achieved whilst preserving the objectives noted, who knows. I suspect it just got harder.
"Access" to the Single Market is something altogether different. There is no way on Earth that will be precluded.
This As I see it the Tories know Brexit means kicking freedom of movement into touch, and ensuring British courts are supreme for the UK (I am very certain the vast majority of Leave voters want both of these). Labour were also in favour of at least the former and I think the latter too (I think they know the vast majority of Leave voters wanted them too).
The EU (not May or Davis) have said that both of these things mean no "membership" of the Single Market. Which I think is what you are referring to?
This isn't, to me, a "May/Davis style Brexit". It's facing facts as they currently stand. Going into a negotiation there is no point saying "but we really want what you are saying we cannot have" as all that does is leave you as a sitting duck around the negotiating table.
Whether something close to "membership" of the Single Market can be achieved whilst preserving the objectives noted, who knows. I suspect it just got harder.
"Access" to the Single Market is something altogether different. There is no way on Earth that will be precluded.
MaxSo said:
I think some people will be interested. If you aren't you're free to just ignore. Or use a few seconds of your life telling me you aren't interested. Up to you.
http://mailchi.mp/survation/post-election-poll-for...
Which of the following do you think is the biggest reason more people than expected chose not to vote for Theresa May? http://mailchi.mp/survation/post-election-poll-for...
All Voters
The “dementia tax” policy 27%
Scrapping free school lunches 9%
Her stance on Brexit 11%
Her performance as leader 24%
Failing to take part in televised debates 18%
Don’t know 12%
I thought it was all about her hard Brexit stance
Also from that poll
In light of the General Election result, which of the following do you prefer?
A “hard” Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union - 36%
A “soft” Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union -47%
Where is the mandate to leave the SM and CU?
In light of the General Election result, which of the following do you prefer?
A “hard” Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union - 36%
A “soft” Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union -47%
Where is the mandate to leave the SM and CU?
///ajd said:
Also from that poll
In light of the General Election result, which of the following do you prefer?
A “hard” Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union - 36%
A “soft” Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union -47%
Where is the mandate to leave the SM and CU?
There is a brexit u turn thread for this, please don't turn the election thread into another one.In light of the General Election result, which of the following do you prefer?
A “hard” Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union - 36%
A “soft” Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union -47%
Where is the mandate to leave the SM and CU?
Mojooo said:
We need another election because a Tory or Labour govt won't be able to push through any of their radical ideas when it comes to voting.
I could envisage Labour getting another 20 seats in there was another election this year.
Which would still mean that they came second again.I could envisage Labour getting another 20 seats in there was another election this year.
spaximus said:
I really think the Tories have got a lot of work to do but it is not impossible to turn this around. The big but is they have to look at why people voted for Corbyn and it wasn't all just kids, it was all across the spectrum.
What they did was tell everyone that they would lose something, winter fuel, triple lock, their homes and why it was necessary and he told everyone they could have it for free.
They did not get social media and never used it effectively, even now when Corbyn has lost, they have wipped up on the net a group to protest outside number 10 demanding she resigns so he can take over. They chose to not understand he lost and that would not happen in any circumstance but there we are.
Another strand has started a petition to stop them using the DUP again with no understanding of how democracy actually works.
She should plough on, re do the boundaries and level the field a bit. They also need to look at if students should be made to vote at home rather than in their studies base as part of a review. In Canterbury it was students who ousted a sitting Tory MP who by all reports was a good local MP and overturned a 99 year stronghold, it doesn't feel right when local wishes are ruled by outsiders passing through and voting as a result of bribes. Others will disagree.
Please tell me you're not the fella who phoned in on Any Answers yesterday, complaining about his son and his son's student mates mobilising to vote out J Brazier? What they did was tell everyone that they would lose something, winter fuel, triple lock, their homes and why it was necessary and he told everyone they could have it for free.
They did not get social media and never used it effectively, even now when Corbyn has lost, they have wipped up on the net a group to protest outside number 10 demanding she resigns so he can take over. They chose to not understand he lost and that would not happen in any circumstance but there we are.
Another strand has started a petition to stop them using the DUP again with no understanding of how democracy actually works.
She should plough on, re do the boundaries and level the field a bit. They also need to look at if students should be made to vote at home rather than in their studies base as part of a review. In Canterbury it was students who ousted a sitting Tory MP who by all reports was a good local MP and overturned a 99 year stronghold, it doesn't feel right when local wishes are ruled by outsiders passing through and voting as a result of bribes. Others will disagree.
And wanting to change the law to stop them doing that?
Brazier was a Brexiteer in a Remain constituency.
It was local wishes that he went.
Although you might have a different idea about how long someone (an outsider) must live in an area before they become a 'local' - and all that goes with that.
This was Canterbury not Royston Vasey.
No doubt other Tories were 'saved' by students not voting in their 'home' constituency but I expect you would be fine with that.
Perhaps retirees shouldn't be allowed vote in seaside towns either until they've survived there for 3 years and become 'local'.
Could that go in the review too?
Not going well then
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/t...
There are good Tory MPs. I've met some, I've heard some speak. The party comes first.
The argument do far seems something like, 'the DUP might be abhorrent but as long as they remain abhorrent elsewhere we will turn a blind eye.'
Thats not working with
- many of the electorate
- increasing number of Tory members
- increasing number of Tory MPs
Simply put, they don't want to have people like the DUP round their house for dinner. They may come well dressed, they may agree to remain civil whilst at your home. But what they did before and what they will do afterwards cannot be ignored and is a reflection of their true nature.
What's the saying about a man being judged on the company he keeps?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/t...
There are good Tory MPs. I've met some, I've heard some speak. The party comes first.
The argument do far seems something like, 'the DUP might be abhorrent but as long as they remain abhorrent elsewhere we will turn a blind eye.'
Thats not working with
- many of the electorate
- increasing number of Tory members
- increasing number of Tory MPs
Simply put, they don't want to have people like the DUP round their house for dinner. They may come well dressed, they may agree to remain civil whilst at your home. But what they did before and what they will do afterwards cannot be ignored and is a reflection of their true nature.
What's the saying about a man being judged on the company he keeps?
RedTrident said:
Not going well then
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/t...
There are good Tory MPs. I've met some, I've heard some speak. The party comes first.
The argument do far seems something like, 'the DUP might be abhorrent but as long as they remain abhorrent elsewhere we will turn a blind eye.'
Thats not working with
- many of the electorate
- increasing number of Tory members
- increasing number of Tory MPs
Simply put, they don't want to have people like the DUP round their house for dinner. They may come well dressed, they may agree to remain civil whilst at your home. But what they did before and what they will do afterwards cannot be ignored and is a reflection of their true nature.
What's the saying about a man being judged on the company he keeps?
Any chance you can post your evidence for this? Thanks.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/t...
There are good Tory MPs. I've met some, I've heard some speak. The party comes first.
The argument do far seems something like, 'the DUP might be abhorrent but as long as they remain abhorrent elsewhere we will turn a blind eye.'
Thats not working with
- many of the electorate
- increasing number of Tory members
- increasing number of Tory MPs
Simply put, they don't want to have people like the DUP round their house for dinner. They may come well dressed, they may agree to remain civil whilst at your home. But what they did before and what they will do afterwards cannot be ignored and is a reflection of their true nature.
What's the saying about a man being judged on the company he keeps?
768 said:
RedTrident said:
Thats not working with
-many of the electorate
-increasing number of Tory members
-increasing number of Tory MPs
- much of the media who want a story-
-
-
- shouty types on Facebook and Twitter that didn't vote Conservative
RedTrident said:
Simply put, they don't want to have people like the DUP round their house for dinner. They may come well dressed, they may agree to remain civil whilst at your home. But what they did before and what they will do afterwards cannot be ignored and is a reflection of their true nature.
What's the saying about a man being judged on the company he keeps?
Could not the same be said about the labour leaders ?What's the saying about a man being judged on the company he keeps?
don'tbesilly said:
RedTrident said:
What's the saying about a man being judged on the company he keeps?
What the saying that is now conveniently overlooked when the same saying is applied to both Corbyn and McDonnell.Both Corbyns IRA past and now this DUP business are not good.
Many here criticising this DUP nonsense are no fans of Corbyn either.
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