Snap General Election?
Discussion
Moonhawk said:
Yep - terrorist incidents like this never happened when the police were flush with cash under a Labour government..........wait a minute 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_b...
Also more generally...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_b...
Budgets down, crime rate down.
Somehow those who routinely confuse correlation with causation manage to leave that one alone.
From The Grauniad:
Deputy Chief Constable Jeff Farrar of the Association of Chief Police Officers said:
The falls reflect the efforts of the police to protect communities. But we cannot be complacent and while overall these results are positive the police service will need to adapt and innovate to continue bringing down crime as their budgets decrease.
Crime Prevention Minister Jeremy Browne said:
It is particularly encouraging that the downward trend had been replicated across every police force in England and Wales. They have shown an impressive ability to accommodate necessary budget reductions while still cutting crime.
My emphasis in both quotes.Everyone in the public sector would appreciate more money funneled into their budgets, but not everyone uses scaremongering tactics to try to get it.
robemcdonald said:
Except we didn't have to deploy the troops in the aftermath of that attack.
But they were deployed in 2003 (again before the nasty Tory cuts) and they even had tanks that time round.http://www.forces.net/news/troops-streets-history
Moonhawk said:
robemcdonald said:
Except we didn't have to deploy the troops in the aftermath of that attack.
But they were deployed in 2003 (again before the nasty Tory cuts) and they even had tanks that time round.http://www.forces.net/news/troops-streets-history
robemcdonald said:
Moonhawk said:
robemcdonald said:
Except we didn't have to deploy the troops in the aftermath of that attack.
But they were deployed in 2003 (again before the nasty Tory cuts) and they even had tanks that time round.http://www.forces.net/news/troops-streets-history
The points are however:
1. We had terrorist bombings before the 'nasty tory cuts'
2. We had troop deployments to supplement the police in response to terrorism before the 'nasty tory cuts'
People are quick to score political points with this one - but there is no evidence this attack was linked to cuts in the police budgets - and no evidence it would have been prevented had they not been cut.
Moonhawk said:
Different events call for different measures.
The points are however:
1. We had terrorist bombings before the 'nasty tory cuts'
2. We had troop deployments to supplement the police in response to terrorism before the 'nasty tory cuts'
People are quick to score political points with this one - but there is no evidence this attack was linked to cuts in the police budgets - and no evidence it would have been prevented had they not been cut.
Spot on.The points are however:
1. We had terrorist bombings before the 'nasty tory cuts'
2. We had troop deployments to supplement the police in response to terrorism before the 'nasty tory cuts'
People are quick to score political points with this one - but there is no evidence this attack was linked to cuts in the police budgets - and no evidence it would have been prevented had they not been cut.
Moonhawk said:
robemcdonald said:
Moonhawk said:
robemcdonald said:
Except we didn't have to deploy the troops in the aftermath of that attack.
But they were deployed in 2003 (again before the nasty Tory cuts) and they even had tanks that time round.http://www.forces.net/news/troops-streets-history
The points are however:
1. We had terrorist bombings before the 'nasty tory cuts'
2. We had troop deployments to supplement the police in response to terrorism before the 'nasty tory cuts'
People are quick to score political points with this one - but there is no evidence this attack was linked to cuts in the police budgets - and no evidence it would have been prevented had they not been cut.
I'm not pro labour, I'm not anti Tory either (believe it or not). I am against cuts to essential public services that put us all in danger though.
Whilst it will never be conclusively proved this incident was in some way the result of cuts to the police force, the testimony in that video from a couple of years ago is pretty damning.
robemcdonald said:
Except we didn't have to deploy the troops in the aftermath of that attack.
Since TM became Home Secretary 1100 or so firearms officers have been cut. Yesterday we had deploy 900 troops to make up the shortfall. Personally I don't think it's a coincidence these numbers are so close.
Troops and armed Police officers are there to perform different roles under different circumstances, just as in NI during the Troubles. Soldiers can be required to undertake a range of duties that Police Officers would not accept, including living under field conditions, being on duty for unlimited hours without overtime etc., so represent a more flexible asset to be deployed under emergency conditions.Since TM became Home Secretary 1100 or so firearms officers have been cut. Yesterday we had deploy 900 troops to make up the shortfall. Personally I don't think it's a coincidence these numbers are so close.
robemcdonald said:
Click on the link someone posted above to James O'Brien. It makes the point far better than me. TM was warned by the police that the cuts she was making would make something like this more likely. This is the police remember, you know the actual people that know about policing.
But that could be interpreted as confirmation bias. Like I said before - somebody will always claim that 'cuts will cause issues'. Then when an issue occurs, they (or others) will then use it to validate their claim - regardless of whether the issue would have happened anyway.
Nobody in the public sector is ever going to turn round and go "you know what - actually we are pretty flush and we'll easily absorb these cuts, so don't worry about it". Every cut in public spending is always met with howls of doom and gloom.
Is there any evidence that this attack was directly linked to the reduction in police budgets? Is there any evidence that it would have been prevented had budgets been at their 'pre-tory' level? Are incidents like this becoming more likely?
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 25th May 16:21
1. I'd love to know how another 10,000 police officers would have stopped a radicalised nutjob wacko murdering 22 innocent people by blowing himself up. Had he committed a crime before then in order to be stopped and arrested?
2. Can we not just fast forward to the 9th June and have this whole sorry election cycle over and done with? I'm sick to death of 24 hour 7 days a week political point scoring. People are seemingly so interested in pointing fingers and accusing people of negligence and complicity and forgetting that people have lost family members and children on Monday.
Then again, i'm presuming that if May and the Conservatives win on the 8th there'll be protests on the 9th by Momentum members and Corbyn supporters.
Should be an interesting interface of lefty marxist protesters wanting to cause chaos and anarchy and armed soldiers under orders to protect the populace...
2. Can we not just fast forward to the 9th June and have this whole sorry election cycle over and done with? I'm sick to death of 24 hour 7 days a week political point scoring. People are seemingly so interested in pointing fingers and accusing people of negligence and complicity and forgetting that people have lost family members and children on Monday.
Then again, i'm presuming that if May and the Conservatives win on the 8th there'll be protests on the 9th by Momentum members and Corbyn supporters.
Should be an interesting interface of lefty marxist protesters wanting to cause chaos and anarchy and armed soldiers under orders to protect the populace...
robemcdonald said:
... TM was warned by the police that the cuts she was making would make something like this more likely. This is the police remember, you know the actual people that know about policing.
.
It's a pretty safe prediction to make with the world as it is. Attacks like this are more likely for 100 reasons. You could almost say "if Tunnocks start selling more teacakes attacks like this will be more likely". It's about as provable as it'll happen anyway. .
tbh I instinctively suspect that reduced community policing is a problem in this country. But I'm not convinced "more money" should be the default answer. And I doubt it would make much/any difference to incidents like this.
What will be interesting is why the reports made about the individual weren't looked at or drew blanks. I doubt that was money related either.
It's about effective policing and best use of the money available AND having a system that doesn't protect the guilty more than it protects the innocent.
Come 9 June hopefully May & co can get on with it and put the necessary legislation in place to support the police and security services to do their jobs effectively without pandering to the whinging lefties and SJWs who consider the "rights" of the guilty more important than those of the victims. That would be a constructive step forward.
Come 9 June hopefully May & co can get on with it and put the necessary legislation in place to support the police and security services to do their jobs effectively without pandering to the whinging lefties and SJWs who consider the "rights" of the guilty more important than those of the victims. That would be a constructive step forward.
Likes Fast Cars said:
It's about effective policing and best use of the money available......
Exactly this - and you know what, it's not just down to the police and/or politicians to make this happen - we all have a responsibility in this.Every selfish t
t who goes out on a Saturday night, gets pissed up and kicks off, and ends up in a cell or in A&E - is part of the problem. People have been abusing our public services for years. If people want effective, efficient public services at a reasonable cost - they have got to stop abusing these services and wasting their time.
The great unwashed are the reason our public services are in the state they are.....f
king grow up.Moonhawk said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
It's about effective policing and best use of the money available......
Exactly this - and you know what, it's not just down to the police and/or politicians to make this happen - we all have a responsibility in this.Every selfish t
t who goes out on a Saturday night, gets pissed up and kicks off, and ends up in a cell or in A&E - is part of the problem. People have been abusing our public services for years. If people want effective, efficient public services at a reasonable cost - they have got to stop abusing these services and wasting their time.
The great unwashed are the reason our public services are in the state they are.....f
king grow up.What about higher fines for such behaviour, starting with any charges for a second offence are doubled or higher (first offence is standard rate fine / sentence, after that tighten the screws) and use this money for policing, NHS, etc. No different to a user-pays system.
Likes Fast Cars said:
Moonhawk said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
It's about effective policing and best use of the money available......
Exactly this - and you know what, it's not just down to the police and/or politicians to make this happen - we all have a responsibility in this.Every selfish t
t who goes out on a Saturday night, gets pissed up and kicks off, and ends up in a cell or in A&E - is part of the problem. People have been abusing our public services for years. If people want effective, efficient public services at a reasonable cost - they have got to stop abusing these services and wasting their time.
The great unwashed are the reason our public services are in the state they are.....f
king grow up.What about higher fines for such behaviour, starting with any charges for a second offence are doubled or higher (first offence is standard rate fine / sentence, after that tighten the screws) and use this money for policing, NHS, etc. No different to a user-pays system.
Likes Fast Cars said:
As for A&E, there is also the NHS cost aspect coming into it (which I think is part of your point).
What about higher fines for such behaviour, starting with any charges for a second offence are doubled or higher (first offence is standard rate fine / sentence, after that tighten the screws) and use this money for policing, NHS, etc. No different to a user-pays system.
Nice idea but it wouldn't even cover the cost surgical tape.What about higher fines for such behaviour, starting with any charges for a second offence are doubled or higher (first offence is standard rate fine / sentence, after that tighten the screws) and use this money for policing, NHS, etc. No different to a user-pays system.
Moonhawk said:
People have been abusing our public services for years. If people want effective, efficient public services at a reasonable cost - they have got to stop abusing these services and wasting their time.
That's true. Take the NHS, much of the budget goes on treating conditions that are at the very least partly down to lifestyle. For example the NHS spends a significant proportion of it's budget, about £12 billion a year, treating type 2 diabetes alone, and unfortunately it's often the people who contribute least to the system that are the biggest users. If everyone looked after themselves properly the cost to society would be so greatly reduced...Edited by mx-6 on Thursday 25th May 17:46
mx-6 said:
Moonhawk said:
People have been abusing our public services for years. If people want effective, efficient public services at a reasonable cost - they have got to stop abusing these services and wasting their time.
That's true. Take the NHS, much of the budget goes on treating conditions that are at the very least partly down to lifestyle. For example the NHS spends a significant proportion of it's budget, about £12 billion a year, treating type 2 diabetes alone, and unfortunately it's often the people who contribute least to the system that are the biggest users. If everyone looked after themselves properly the cost to society would be so greatly reduced...gooner1 said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
As for A&E, there is also the NHS cost aspect coming into it (which I think is part of your point).
What about higher fines for such behaviour, starting with any charges for a second offence are doubled or higher (first offence is standard rate fine / sentence, after that tighten the screws) and use this money for policing, NHS, etc. No different to a user-pays system.
Nice idea but it wouldn't even cover the cost surgical tape.What about higher fines for such behaviour, starting with any charges for a second offence are doubled or higher (first offence is standard rate fine / sentence, after that tighten the screws) and use this money for policing, NHS, etc. No different to a user-pays system.
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