Snap General Election?
Discussion
footnote said:
They probably have to put up with being told that the person whose arse they're wiping is much richer than them and has sold their big house, and has lots of savings that they are passing on to their grandchildren, through their own efforts because they weren't dumb enough to take a job in a care home wiping arses.
I love how you characterise anyone with money as acting like Mr Burns from the Simpsons. 
If you talk to the people who wipe the bums in hospitals, you might find they'll tell you that illness is a great leveller and that at that stage wealth does not differentiate. People who're sick can be grateful or the most insufferable idiots - and how much they're worth has very little to do with it.
Your prejudices about the rich are a bit stone age. And you're maligning the carers, nurses and doctors by suggesting they resent their patients or the difficult jobs they do.
AstonZagato said:
Tuna said:
footnote said:
Don't be daft. Wealth and privilege are the bedrocks of the establishment in this country.
The entire country and political system was devised by the wealthy to ensure they stay wealthy unless they f
k up disastrously.
Ah, so you actually are upset that there is an establishment that you don't like. I'm afraid history is not on your side here... those who are in power do what they can to stay in power, regardless of their political leanings. Corbyn would abolish land ownership if he could, Putin keeps an iron grip on power, China is kept in control, Trump has wealthy backers, May and co have friends in the city.The entire country and political system was devised by the wealthy to ensure they stay wealthy unless they f
k up disastrously.On the whole though, I value democracy, personal freedoms, opportunity for all matched with individual responsibility. The side effect of that is that some people will be immensely richer than I am - but all of the evidence is that they pull the rest of us up with them. You can do the economic analysis and it's the countries with the insanely rich that also have the least poor, and the highest average quality of life.
The campaigners will go on about the 'wealth gap', because those handful of outliers do indeed earn many many times more than the poorest have to live on - but the fact is that the 'poor' in the UK are fantastically better off than the poor in China, Russia, all of the Middle East and so on. That doesn't mean we can't do more to help them, but I'll call you a liar if you try to say that this country is worse off than all but a handful of others. Even though we have a Duke who owns vast tracts of land.
The other interesting thing is that the insanely wealthy are also the ones who tend to make the big advancements. Steam trains were a plaything for rich aristocrats, the car was a toy for the wealthy - and now Elon Musk is building electric cars and space rockets. Without those wealthy patrons, these things would never have been built. It's noticeable that since the UK is currently doing much worse than it used to for producing the super rich, we're also doing much worse for innovation.
Oh, and historically, all but a handful of the wealthy do eventually f
k up disastrously. That's why the National Trust has all those nice buildings to go stand in and why most people are able to own their own homes in the UK.http://uk.businessinsider.com/sunday-times-rich-li...
The ST surevy names 1000 rich people - but they are not the only 1000 rich people.
If there are 5000 'rich' people (there may be many more), I would speculate their wealth goes up and down over time so they could be in the bottom of the 5000 or 'newly arrived' again after 20 years in the top 1000.
Of course, I have no doubt there are new rich people and new relatives of old rich people.
Like football teams, they go up and down the tables.
Go through all the MPs (who make legislation) and check out their schools and universities and then check their fathers, and grandfathers, mothers and grandmothers.
How many of them come out of 'nowhere'?
How many come fom historically landed families?
How many are the children of MPs, senior military and legal figures, doctors etc etc.
Read it and make your own mind up - I'm not David Icke - they haven't all got reptiles eyes but MPs (all parties) going back generations - they've not been paupers.
Stuzza said:
turbobloke said:
Why fear? It would be great - Labour unlectable for even longer, then if McDonnell takes over, even longer still.
Elections are (often) lost by the government rather than won by the opposition. By that I mean that the electorate can become so disillusioned with the government that it becomes a case of "anyone but them!". We saw this with the Conservatives in the mid-90s where they become embroiled on scandal and internal infighting that contributed to Tony Blair's large majority. The fear, therefore, is that the hard-left gain power not through a positive vote for them but rather a negative vote against the government.footnote said:
Well, I'm not a statistician, but I don't think that means the whole 'entitled elite' concept is flawed.
The ST surevy names 1000 rich people - but they are not the only 1000 rich people.
If there are 5000 'rich' people (there may be many more), I would speculate their wealth goes up and down over time so they could be in the bottom of the 5000 or 'newly arrived' again after 20 years in the top 1000.
Of course, I have no doubt there are new rich people and new relatives of old rich people.
Like football teams, they go up and down the tables.
Go through all the MPs (who make legislation) and check out their schools and universities and then check their fathers, and grandfathers, mothers and grandmothers.
How many of them come out of 'nowhere'?
How many come fom historically landed families?
How many are the children of MPs, senior military and legal figures, doctors etc etc.
Read it and make your own mind up - I'm not David Icke - they haven't all got reptiles eyes but MPs (all parties) going back generations - they've not been paupers.
More tham 2 thirds of current mps attended state schools. The ST surevy names 1000 rich people - but they are not the only 1000 rich people.
If there are 5000 'rich' people (there may be many more), I would speculate their wealth goes up and down over time so they could be in the bottom of the 5000 or 'newly arrived' again after 20 years in the top 1000.
Of course, I have no doubt there are new rich people and new relatives of old rich people.
Like football teams, they go up and down the tables.
Go through all the MPs (who make legislation) and check out their schools and universities and then check their fathers, and grandfathers, mothers and grandmothers.
How many of them come out of 'nowhere'?
How many come fom historically landed families?
How many are the children of MPs, senior military and legal figures, doctors etc etc.
Read it and make your own mind up - I'm not David Icke - they haven't all got reptiles eyes but MPs (all parties) going back generations - they've not been paupers.
You're a loon.
Murph7355 said:
Mrr T said:
So Cameron went to the EU with:
1) The potential to radically effect the future of the EU.
2) A veto over any new treaty, any new member, and any new trade treaty.
3) Being a major contributor to the EU budget.
May goes with a:
1) A trade deficit 50% of which is with German.
2) Money which will have to be paid from UK taxes.
Guess who had the stronger hand.
Time will tell, but as the EU never expected for one minute that we'd leave as they were well aware of how project fear would work, Cameron's hand was very weak. As proven with him coming back with NOTHING. 1) The potential to radically effect the future of the EU.
2) A veto over any new treaty, any new member, and any new trade treaty.
3) Being a major contributor to the EU budget.
May goes with a:
1) A trade deficit 50% of which is with German.
2) Money which will have to be paid from UK taxes.
Guess who had the stronger hand.
They now know we're going. And they know what parts of their economies are chunkily dependent on the UK market.
If they choose to go Pyrrhic, it will justify the decision to leave. If they play sensibly, all this fluff, bluster and worry will have been for nothing.
Merkel's latest comments are more concerning from a historic perspective IMO. However I'm not convinced drum banging against both the US and UK is a sound strategy. There's only so much importing/exporting amongst themselves the EU can do and continue to grow. And only so much the poorer states will tolerate while Germany grows ever richer.
The game becomes more interesting week by week
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-rele...
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-rele...
While the brexit buffoons continue to chant "NDIBDB”.
The rEU is quaking in its boots in case some tanned PH company director takes over the negotiations.
joshcowin said:
Yes it does, I compromise as I obey the laws and pay the taxes set and agreed by the politicians, that's as far as I am prepared to go.
I am not criticising anyone else and don't want to come over as an arse, that's just my view. I am interested in other peoples views however, hence my involvement in the discussion.
Yeah, I agree in part. I've never been proud and felt like I've done something really good when I vote, as many have said, it's all just become about voting for who will do the least damage.I am not criticising anyone else and don't want to come over as an arse, that's just my view. I am interested in other peoples views however, hence my involvement in the discussion.
But, I don't feel like I've betrayed my own beliefs by voting in that way. I'd rather have some say than none at all, even if I don't agree with 100% of it.
Tuna said:
footnote said:
They probably have to put up with being told that the person whose arse they're wiping is much richer than them and has sold their big house, and has lots of savings that they are passing on to their grandchildren, through their own efforts because they weren't dumb enough to take a job in a care home wiping arses.
I love how you characterise anyone with money as acting like Mr Burns from the Simpsons. If you talk to the people who wipe the bums in hospitals, you might find they'll tell you that illness is a great leveller and that at that stage wealth does not differentiate. People who're sick can be grateful or the most insufferable idiots - and how much they're worth has very little to do with it.
Your prejudices about the rich are a bit stone age. And you're maligning the carers, nurses and doctors by suggesting they resent their patients or the difficult jobs they do.
I used to wipe bums in hospitals.
And your 'virtue signalling' is beneath contempt.
footnote said:
Tuna said:
footnote said:
They probably have to put up with being told that the person whose arse they're wiping is much richer than them and has sold their big house, and has lots of savings that they are passing on to their grandchildren, through their own efforts because they weren't dumb enough to take a job in a care home wiping arses.
I love how you characterise anyone with money as acting like Mr Burns from the Simpsons. If you talk to the people who wipe the bums in hospitals, you might find they'll tell you that illness is a great leveller and that at that stage wealth does not differentiate. People who're sick can be grateful or the most insufferable idiots - and how much they're worth has very little to do with it.
Your prejudices about the rich are a bit stone age. And you're maligning the carers, nurses and doctors by suggesting they resent their patients or the difficult jobs they do.
I used to wipe bums in hospitals.
And your 'virtue signalling' is beneath contempt.
turbobloke said:
footnote said:
Tuna said:
footnote said:
They probably have to put up with being told that the person whose arse they're wiping is much richer than them and has sold their big house, and has lots of savings that they are passing on to their grandchildren, through their own efforts because they weren't dumb enough to take a job in a care home wiping arses.
I love how you characterise anyone with money as acting like Mr Burns from the Simpsons. If you talk to the people who wipe the bums in hospitals, you might find they'll tell you that illness is a great leveller and that at that stage wealth does not differentiate. People who're sick can be grateful or the most insufferable idiots - and how much they're worth has very little to do with it.
Your prejudices about the rich are a bit stone age. And you're maligning the carers, nurses and doctors by suggesting they resent their patients or the difficult jobs they do.
I used to wipe bums in hospitals.
And your 'virtue signalling' is beneath contempt.
joshcowin said:
gooner1 said:
Are we talking about people with health problems here?
However there are also thousands abusing the system.
We have a wheelchair accessible Caddy for my father in law - four grand initial upfront payment for the conversion then the DLA payment goes straight to motability. Great deal for motab, particularly on non-wheelchair cars as their huge buying power means they must make a killing out of it. It's also useful for us as it's new, reliable, insured, taxed, maintained and even has breakdown cover with it. Shame it's rubbish to drive
The disability assessment tests have been tightened up (nasty nasty tories etc) so just getting a bit panicky in crowds or needing a walking stick every now and again shouldn't mean you get the higher rate of DLA - in theory you genuinely need to be experiencing some pretty rubbish medical problems.
Justayellowbadge said:
footnote said:
Well, I'm not a statistician, but I don't think that means the whole 'entitled elite' concept is flawed.
The ST surevy names 1000 rich people - but they are not the only 1000 rich people.
If there are 5000 'rich' people (there may be many more), I would speculate their wealth goes up and down over time so they could be in the bottom of the 5000 or 'newly arrived' again after 20 years in the top 1000.
Of course, I have no doubt there are new rich people and new relatives of old rich people.
Like football teams, they go up and down the tables.
Go through all the MPs (who make legislation) and check out their schools and universities and then check their fathers, and grandfathers, mothers and grandmothers.
How many of them come out of 'nowhere'?
How many come fom historically landed families?
How many are the children of MPs, senior military and legal figures, doctors etc etc.
Read it and make your own mind up - I'm not David Icke - they haven't all got reptiles eyes but MPs (all parties) going back generations - they've not been paupers.
More tham 2 thirds of current mps attended state schools. The ST surevy names 1000 rich people - but they are not the only 1000 rich people.
If there are 5000 'rich' people (there may be many more), I would speculate their wealth goes up and down over time so they could be in the bottom of the 5000 or 'newly arrived' again after 20 years in the top 1000.
Of course, I have no doubt there are new rich people and new relatives of old rich people.
Like football teams, they go up and down the tables.
Go through all the MPs (who make legislation) and check out their schools and universities and then check their fathers, and grandfathers, mothers and grandmothers.
How many of them come out of 'nowhere'?
How many come fom historically landed families?
How many are the children of MPs, senior military and legal figures, doctors etc etc.
Read it and make your own mind up - I'm not David Icke - they haven't all got reptiles eyes but MPs (all parties) going back generations - they've not been paupers.
You're a loon.
And how is that represented in the wider population? What percentage of ordinary people go to state schools?
Dick!
andy43 said:
You need to be in receipt of higher level disability allowance (£50-odd a week) to apply for a mobility car - instead of cash, it's used to 'lease' the car.
We have a wheelchair accessible Caddy for my father in law - four grand initial upfront payment for the conversion then the DLA payment goes straight to motability. Great deal for motab, particularly on non-wheelchair cars as their huge buying power means they must make a killing out of it. It's also useful for us as it's new, reliable, insured, taxed, maintained and even has breakdown cover with it. Shame it's rubbish to drive
The disability assessment tests have been tightened up (nasty nasty tories etc) so just getting a bit panicky in crowds or needing a walking stick every now and again shouldn't mean you get the higher rate of DLA - in theory you genuinely need to be experiencing some pretty rubbish medical problems.
That is my understanding of the Motability scheme, Andy, well in theory at least.We have a wheelchair accessible Caddy for my father in law - four grand initial upfront payment for the conversion then the DLA payment goes straight to motability. Great deal for motab, particularly on non-wheelchair cars as their huge buying power means they must make a killing out of it. It's also useful for us as it's new, reliable, insured, taxed, maintained and even has breakdown cover with it. Shame it's rubbish to drive
The disability assessment tests have been tightened up (nasty nasty tories etc) so just getting a bit panicky in crowds or needing a walking stick every now and again shouldn't mean you get the higher rate of DLA - in theory you genuinely need to be experiencing some pretty rubbish medical problems.
JagLover said:
Greg66 said:
Two weeks ago I read/saw/heard (can't recall) that Corbyn and Momentum's sole objective was to increase the share of the vote over that which Miliband achieved. That would be taken as vindication of the direction that he has taken the party, and lay the groundwork for a further shift in the future.
It is a bit of a meaningless statistic though. Labour getting 35% of the vote isn't much use in returning to government if the Tories get 44%+ and it is the nature of Corbyn and his team that is generating allot of that Tory vote.
That said I think the last few weeks have shown the appeal of an authentic left wing vision. If it was presented by a credible team, and one untainted by past terrorist associations, then it might be able to win.
gooner1 said:
andy43 said:
You need to be in receipt of higher level disability allowance (£50-odd a week) to apply for a mobility car - instead of cash, it's used to 'lease' the car.
We have a wheelchair accessible Caddy for my father in law - four grand initial upfront payment for the conversion then the DLA payment goes straight to motability. Great deal for motab, particularly on non-wheelchair cars as their huge buying power means they must make a killing out of it. It's also useful for us as it's new, reliable, insured, taxed, maintained and even has breakdown cover with it. Shame it's rubbish to drive
The disability assessment tests have been tightened up (nasty nasty tories etc) so just getting a bit panicky in crowds or needing a walking stick every now and again shouldn't mean you get the higher rate of DLA - in theory you genuinely need to be experiencing some pretty rubbish medical problems.
That is my understanding of the Motability scheme, Andy, well in theory at least.We have a wheelchair accessible Caddy for my father in law - four grand initial upfront payment for the conversion then the DLA payment goes straight to motability. Great deal for motab, particularly on non-wheelchair cars as their huge buying power means they must make a killing out of it. It's also useful for us as it's new, reliable, insured, taxed, maintained and even has breakdown cover with it. Shame it's rubbish to drive
The disability assessment tests have been tightened up (nasty nasty tories etc) so just getting a bit panicky in crowds or needing a walking stick every now and again shouldn't mean you get the higher rate of DLA - in theory you genuinely need to be experiencing some pretty rubbish medical problems.
I know people with disabled children (learning difficulties) who do not need a brand new car, yes they need help with rest bite care and possibly education/ work placements but they do not need a brand new car every 3 years!
ICM/Guardian poll out one hour ago; the fieldwork took place prior to Paxman's circus.
The Guardian says that the Conservatives are down 2 points - that'll be from a 5 point lead to a 12 point lead.
To reach this conclusion they compare only with a similar poll one week ago which gave the Tories a 14 point lead.
CON: 45%
LAB: 33%
LIBD: 8%
UKIP: 5%
GRN: 3%
No change is within the margin of error.
The Guardian says that the Conservatives are down 2 points - that'll be from a 5 point lead to a 12 point lead.
To reach this conclusion they compare only with a similar poll one week ago which gave the Tories a 14 point lead.
CON: 45%
LAB: 33%
LIBD: 8%
UKIP: 5%
GRN: 3%
No change is within the margin of error.
A quote from a Terry Pratchett books describes to me the Labour party politics:
Sir Terry Pratchett said:
A lot of stuff is Crab Bucket. Being born in the wrong street/shape/race/sex is Crab Bucket. The endless fight for recognition/food/love/appreciation is Crab Bucket. Just ask Pepe. It takes a visit to Verity Pushpram for Glenda Sugarbean to fully grasp the subtleties of meaning.
Anyone as experienced in handling seafood as Ms Pushpram knows that no lid is necessary on a bucket of crabs. If one tries to climb out, the others will pull it back. Crabs fall considerably lower on the evolutionary scale than primates and, certainly, people, so this seems to be a basic force of life. Petty jealousy or a reluctance to see anyone do better has probably slowed the development of civilisation more than anything.
Pepe used the expression "crab bucket" to describe the slippery pit created by this destructive tendency. It has other names elsewhere, like "tall-poppy syndrome" and "envy".
Anyone as experienced in handling seafood as Ms Pushpram knows that no lid is necessary on a bucket of crabs. If one tries to climb out, the others will pull it back. Crabs fall considerably lower on the evolutionary scale than primates and, certainly, people, so this seems to be a basic force of life. Petty jealousy or a reluctance to see anyone do better has probably slowed the development of civilisation more than anything.
Pepe used the expression "crab bucket" to describe the slippery pit created by this destructive tendency. It has other names elsewhere, like "tall-poppy syndrome" and "envy".
footnote said:
Well, I'm not a statistician, but I don't think that means the whole 'entitled elite' concept is flawed.
You're like a dog with a bone, aren't you? People give you evidence and reasoning that suggest you may be wrong, and you snap at them and stubbornly refuse to budge. Well, if you're just going to repeat your position in the face of some interesting perspectives, I won't try to convince you otherwise.footnote said:
I don't know who Mr Burns is.
I used to wipe bums in hospitals.
And your 'virtue signalling' is beneath contempt.
Is this how you deal with anyone with a different point of view? There was no virtue signalling going on there - your argument showed up a number of prejudices and I challenged them.I used to wipe bums in hospitals.
And your 'virtue signalling' is beneath contempt.
Funnily enough, the last 'rich person' I met was significantly more polite and open to different ideas than you are being.
joshcowin said:
I know people with disabled children (learning difficulties) who do not need a brand new car, yes they need help with rest bite care and possibly education/ work placements but they do not need a brand new car every 3 years!
offtopic but I worked with someone a few years back who had a motoblity car as he occasional took his younger sister to the doctors. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff